[helen___keller]

I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents:

(a) Straight As

(b) (if applicable) Take all AP courses available at your high school

(c) (if applicable) Take additional college courses through community college dual enrollment or online school

(d) (if applicable) Join the math club, honors society, run for some kind of student council position, or other academics-oriented or leadership-oriented club role that doesn't require a hefty buy-in

b-d may or may not apply, depending on your school, school district, and state.

[underpand]

> I would challenge if ACT/SAT is much about pure intellectual merit, considering how much one can boost their score with dedicated tutors and so on, but I digress. How to show intellectual merit other than standardized tests without relying on rich parents:

I don't think the difference between dedicated tutors and individual studying with Khan Academy is a large difference. The majority of low scorers score low because they're either lower on the intelligence scale or didn't spend time individually studying.

[rychco]

“When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure.”

If your suggested measures were considered, they would quickly become targets & add to the already insane workload that high school students must put up with in order to be considered competitive applicants. It's unfortunately not a scenario where you can say 'Pick one of (a) through (d)', because it will quickly become all of (a) through (d).

[alistairSH]

Applicants to top universities are already doing (a) through (d), so removing the SAT should help - it's one less thing to worry about. If the AP/IB exams are just as good a proxy for "college aptitude", we should just us those, right?

[rychco]

While I agree in theory that AP/IB exams could be used instead of SAT/ACT, they are unfortunately not available at all schools. Students nowadays are already occasionally forced to travel to different schools in their area in order to take as many AP/IB classes as possible.

Additionally, removing any of the objective requirements forces students to add even more activities to their existing laundry list of extracurriculars in order to stand out. I don't have any evidence, but I fear that students will have to work even harder & spend even more hours outside the classroom just to stand out without SAT/ACT scores. Students are massively overworked as it is.

[alistairSH]

It seems the students (parents?) who are inclined to spend every waking moment doing "college prep" of some sort are already doing so.

Personally, I hate the whole test industry - it incentivizes poor behavior (ie the existence of the entire test prep industry). But, I don't have a better answer. I wish colleges could rely on GPA, course selection, and extracurriculars, but apparently that doesn't work either.

At a macro level, I'm not even sure it matters much. The students who are marginal for acceptance to MIT or other top-tier universities are already going to be successful wherever they land. The real stand-outs are going to get in regardless - they're just that good. And everybody else will do just fine at the best state u. (or whatever other selective but not "ivy tier" college) in their region.

Anecdotally, my friends kids are getting into top universities without the insanity. A bunch to UVA, W&M, and VT (we live in VA), a few Ivies, a few to Stanford and Berkeley. The few kids I know doing test prep and other stuff like that are mostly getting into 2nd tier privates, which they likely would have gone to without the insanity.

[helen___keller]

> I don't have any evidence, but I fear that students will have to work even harder & spend even more hours outside the classroom just to stand out without SAT/ACT scores. Students are massively overworked as it is.

This is basically a tautology ;) it doesn't matter how the targets change, as selectivity increases students (and their parents, for the well-to-do) will work harder and harder to pass whatever filters exist.

[helen___keller]

> they would quickly become targets

This is already the case. My list is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive nor aspirational

[rychco]

> This is already the case. My list is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive nor aspirational

I misunderstood the intent of the list, I agree with you.

[option]

yeah, try finding good “free” math club when kid is 6-7 y.o.

And by the time there are actually viable free options the kids are already far behind.

Preparing for tests are much cheaper than joining good clubs and/or preparing to write a food essays

[helen___keller]

I'm not sure I understand your point. GP was looking for how an applicant who is smart but not privileged can show how they are smart, so that's what I was listing. Literally, what I did in high school. I joined the math team and went to competitions. When my school didn't have the funding or interest to go to regional competitions, I managed to get myself signed up as a team of 1 representing my school and hitch a ride with a neighboring school.

[option]

that’s literally what I did too and (not to brag but) I got on my country’s international math team and got free admission to university because of that. But how many were there? 10 at most.

Edit: my point is that finding the right math club at the right time is even more luck and effort than getting good on standard tests.

[helen___keller]

Oh sorry, to be clear "math club" here was supposed to mean like, local math club, not successful competitive math club.

I mostly convinced classmates to go to local competitions because it was a day out of class and we could stop by the mall afterwards. We didn't win jack shit, my crowning "achievement" was beating half the schools at a regional competition, which is typically teams of 4, but as a team of 1 (and there's no award for 50th percentile).

Nonetheless, I had "President - Mu Alpha Theta" on my college application and I did end up making it to an elite university.