[JPKab]

My father had a mid-life crisis in the mid 90's, and went from being an avid hunter and fisherman to being a hardcore animal rights vegan. (It was all precipitated by him meeting and dating a woman who worked at PETA)

He was about 45 at the time. Within 2 years, his health had markedly declined. There are healthy vegan diets, but his was an unhealthy vegan diet.

Despite no history of heart attacks on either his mother or father's side, he developed heart disease in his early 50s. This was where I first became aware of the scientific fraud that is the lipid hypothesis, and how wrong it is. The Framinham Heart Study has been a source of data that actively refutes the lipid hypothesis for decades, but the nutritional science community has similar issues to many other organizations with tenured experts whose entire reputation is tied to their theories being right.

My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy. It's a religion to them, and that's that.

I was a teen when he converted to veganism, and my encounters with these various activists made me absolutely despise them and their ilk. Truly contemptible people in general, who fully believe the ends justify any means.

[nish1500]

There are some rare individuals whose diet needs ingredients found only in animal products. I have come across exactly 2 in my lifetime. That said, these people would still be vegan if they ate animal products. Veganism, by definition, seeks to exclude animal products "as far as is possible and practicable".

I don't know enough about your father's case but this might be more co-relation than causation, based on your facts. If going vegan was causing heart issues in people, we'd really know by now.

[raffraffraff]

I've been vegetarian for 25 years. I'm male, 45 years old, my resting heart rate is around 50, and I can run 10km in under 50 minutes (and I do this about 3 times per week).

Scroll back 5 years. My wife and I decided to become vegan (for various reasons - carbon footprint, animal welfare, all that jazz). Having been healthy vegetarians for about 20 years, it should have been easy, but regardless, we were meticulous. In fact, not being the "religious" type, and having found out that bi-valves (oysters, clams, scallops etc) don't have the where-with-all to feel pain, I added them to my diet. We just cut out all eggs and dairy.

Now, I can't swear that going vegan caused my health problems, but about a year after going vegan, my overall "vitality" had dropped (I felt tired, but kept up frequent exercise). But the biggest issue was that I couldn't shake off a cold. It would start with the usual sniffle, and within a few days I have a temperature and my lungs would be infected. I went through about a year of constant on-and-off infections. At the worst point, I had two straight months of infection, seemed to shake off for a few weeks, and got it back again for another two months. I was miserable. I was worried it was something really bad like lung cancer. The doctor prescribed me two types of inhaler, lots of antibiotics and told me I had adult onset asthma.

The inhalers helped me manage things, but I really just felt like I was keeping another infection at bay all the time. I went back on eggs and a small amount of dairy. A few months later I was back running. I haven't had a single problem since. 5 years without inhalers.

I have no idea what really caused my issues. My wife developed an intolerance to soy during our veganism. If she eats tofu for a few days, her skin gets itchy and she eventually get a flare up of rosacea (which btw, she had for months until she figured out the soy connection, but it took weeks after cutting out soy and taking meds before it completely cleared up).

The biggest issue I have with a pure vegan diet isn't just cutting out foods, it's the addition of huge amounts of stuff that you normally wouldn't eat in such high amounts (nut milk, nut butter, nut cheese, nut burgers... soy in everything)

I have encountered these militant vegans too. I don't get into arguments, I just say "it's not for me".

[pacomerh]

This hasn't been my experience being vegan. I actually feel great, vitality and everything. My whole family is and they're also fine like everyone else. We just make sure we eat good balanced meals.

[femiagbabiaka]

there are a lot of micronutrients that humans depend on that can be easy to miss out on when you switch to a vegan diet. but this is the case with any "extreme" diet.

[failwhaleshark]

Name even one that cannot be sourced except from animals.

Micros:

- Vitamins: A, B[1,2,3,5,6,7,9,12], C, D, E, K

- Minerals: Ca, P, Mg, Na, Cl, K, S

- Trace minerals: Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn, I, F, Se

Or even macros:

- Glucose

- Fiber

- Lipids

- Essential amino acids (EAA's): his, ile, leu, lys, met, phe, thr, trp, val

- Conditionally-essential amino acids (CEAA's): arg, cys, gln, gly, pro, tyr

Your definition of "extreme" is extremely dishonest FUD.

[femiagbabiaka]

Not dishonest, and not FUD. I'm simply stating the obvious -- we have cultural norms around a balanced omnivore diet that happen to include a lot of these micro and macronutrients. Most people don't even think about it and will only be deficient in a subset of micros. When people swap to veganism or vegetarianism they don't have the same cultural norms to fall back on and struggle to fulfill micro and macronutrients, which results in stories like the one upthread. It doesn't do your cause any favors when you ignore people's suffering from lack of nutrition while trying to swap onto it.

As far as the extreme label goes, any highly restrictive diet is extreme. Veganism, carnivore, keto, etc.

[failwhaleshark]

You still don't get it. Whatever you're going on about is only "obvious" to you. "Cultural norms" are your judgements and your biases. There is no mandate to "suffer" from a "lack of nutrition," millions and millions of people are vegetarian and just fine. I'm one of them. My CBC and vitamin panel came back as 100% normal.

Meat agriculture is killing us slowly like cigarettes and cancer, and kills us quickly.

1918 most likely zoonotic route:

Birds -> pigs (at a "piggery") -> humans.

2019 SARS-CoV-2 most likely zoonotic route:

Bats -("wet market")> humans.

You seem to emphasize edge-case FUD and "other" people who don't agree with your value judgements rather than opening your eyes to meat agriculture as a slow-moving existential threat to our survival like and causing climate change.

It's very unfortunate that you're so narrow-minded.

[TheCoelacanth]

They didn't say "cannot be sourced except from animals". They said "easy to miss out on". You're arguing against a strawman.

Anyone switching to a vegan diet certainly would be well-advised to pay attention to micro-nutrients and make sure they have their bases covered.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

I don't understand why some people gravitate to absolutes. You shall eat no animal products to you shall eat only animal products.

Are people just uncomfortable not knowing and milquetoast answers like "eat a variety" are boring? Are there militant omnivores?

[pacomerh]

> My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy.

You're missing the point here. They're not looking for reasons to think meat is healthy. You're vegan because you're against animal cruelty and harm that is done in the process to animals and our planet.

The diet aspect of it, yeah you can have bad habits in any diet, your health can decline just eating bad period. There are countless of cases of people's health decline that are not news anymore because it's very common. Hearth disease because of bad cholesterol?, well yeah it's not news we've been seeing that for ages so no gossip there. But what about a vegan person that died. Let's jump into conclusions and use this a reason to keep eating the things we like, because god forbid they take away our pleasures no matter who we hurt. This applies to both perspectives.

[failwhaleshark]

Most people are weak assholes and don't care about animal cruelty so long as they don't see it and they get their Big Mac.

The bigger problems, to them, of meat agriculture should be:

- climate change.

- pandemics: 1918, 2019, and more.

- antibiotic resistance.

- pollution: air, water, and soil.

- resource utilization.

- deforestation.

[jelsisi]

I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with vegans, it seems like most people do lol. I was vegan for about a year, and I found it through self experimentation. I felt much lighter and energetic when I didn't eat meat. I did feel more burnt out mentally though. Through some research I started taking fish oil and feel much better now. Overall I'd say I feel great and would recommend my diet, especially considering my belief that how we treat animals is one of the biggest ethical dilemmas we are currently facing. May I ask what he ate? Considering that in the 90's there weren't many meat/dairy alternatives for vegans I am not sure how he developed a heart attack.

[JPKab]

He did this when I was 15. I was forced to be vegan as well, since he put the groceries in the house.

I was voluntarily a vegan in my early 20s from 2001 to 2005. I too felt far better when I first transitioned to veganism, for several months. Over time, I gradually had a hard time keeping my weight at a normal level, and noticed that I healed slower from physical activity, but supplementation helped with that. The thing that ended up doing me in was an experiment to try to gain muscle mass (I had lost it while being vegan and working construction) where I started eating fish and eggs ended up having the unforeseen side-effect of curing my depression.

I'm not prescribing any diet to anybody, but it wasn't a great fit for me.

My father's development of heart disease was no mystery. He's a dumb redneck who went vegan because of a woman and the ensuing social circle that gave him what he always wanted, a sense of community. He's a shitty cook, except for meat, and so he ended up replacing meat with carbs and vegetable oils. Refined carbs trigger the liver to crank out triglycerides into the blood stream, who consequentially damage arterial linings and cause inflammation. His diet went from being a relatively healthy one that included animal products, but was a lot of game meat and fresh caught fish, to a diet that happened to be vegan but was shitty.

The religious zealots he was around told him that animal products were THE cause of heart disease and cancer and everything else. Total BS of course.

[failwhaleshark]

It's easy to have a crappy diet regardless of diet religion. My uncle is a knuckle-dragging idiot who only eats fried meat like sausages, has diverticulosis, obese, and is one step away from colon cancer.

[flowerlad]

> This was where I first became aware of the scientific fraud that is the lipid hypothesis, and how wrong it is.

This fraud is being fueled by the billions being raked in by Big Pharma, through statin drugs.

Read more about it here, and visit the links at the bottom of the story for details: https://medium.com/@petilon/cholesterol-and-statins-e7d9d8ee...

[enriquto]

> My experience dealing with militant vegans is that there is no amount or type of evidence that would convince them that a diet that includes ANY amount of animal products is healthy. It's a religion to them, and that's that.

This does not correspond at all with my experience. I know many "militant" vegans, but none of them says that a vegan diet is healthier in itself. They simply don't want to kill animals. Even the most militant of the bunch has this clear. I was explaining to him that my kids enjoy vegan dishes, and he warned me against the dangers of a solely plant-based diet for children. Apparently they'd need some dietary supplements for a correct growth (I didn't really care, because my kids eat a lot of meat and fish, just not every day).

[0-_-0]

I only know 2 vegans, and they are vegan for solely health reasons (AFAIK)

[t0mbstone]

Just to throw my own vegan diet anecdote onto the growing pile:

Last year I went on a pure vegan diet for about 6 months (after watching the Netflix documentary "Game Changers").

Everything was going well (or so I thought) right up until I woke up one day with abdominal pain.

Over the course of an hour, it went from feeling like it could be gas or constipation to being the worst pain I'd ever felt. I was literally writhing on the ground while dry retching from the pain. I've never experienced anything else like it before.

Turns out, I had kidney stones.

One of the primary causes of kidney stones is too much oxalates in your diet. Guess what oxalates are found in? Practically every vegetable I had been eating for months.

[JPKab]

That documentary is rife with inaccuracies as well. It's a consequence of having a bunch of wealthy Hollywood folks convert to veganism, and then jump on board with pushing a diet as the be-all/end-all.

It's one thing to claim (accurately) that a good, careful vegan diet is healthy for a person and very healthy for the planet. It's a whole different ballgame to claim that a healthy vegan diet is nutritionally superior to any and all diets that include any form of animal products, which is essentially what Game Changers claims.

There was a rather entertaining and informative debate about Game Changers between a bad-ass vegan MMA fighter and another nutritional expert on Joe Rogan's podcast, and one thing they both end up acknowledging is that Game Changers is a propaganda film disguised as a documentary.

[failwhaleshark]

Oxalates are an anti-nutrient. You don't eat a bunch of oxalate-containing foods or Vitamin C like spinach, soy, almonds, or beets, that was your mistake, not the type of diet.

People can give themselves gout from eating foods high in purines. Is that the fault of a carnivorous diet?

It's the same as idiots who go on extreme, no-food fasting diets and give themselves gallstones because they don't have any lipid intake to empty their gallbladders periodically.

People have to know what they're doing and not blame a lifestyle change when it's their fault for not doing it right.

[t0mbstone]

Yep... It was definitely my fault for doing the vegan diet "wrong", but it was also really easy to do it wrong on accident, which people need to be aware of.

I thought I was doing the right things. I was taking a multivitamin and supplementing my B12 according to common vegan recommendations. Nobody mentioned the possibility of kidney stones though!

[failwhaleshark]

Hey, that's okay. Maybe try it again with different aspects. I had a neighbor in the college dorms who went vegan without any research, and gave himself depression and other psychological/neurological problems (probably a lack of B12). I think it's wise to get blood tests after major dietary changes to be sure everything is good.

Personally, I'm a lazy vegetarian, not a vegan per se. I really want to give up dairy, but cheeses are soo darn tasty. I have a single 6 mm kidney stone from chronic high cortisol levels, not diet (according to doctors).

Other things I do:

- Gender-specific multivitamin

- Vegan B complex

- Vegan 10k IU avg per day D3 + K MTK-7 (once a week 50k IU + using up 5k I still have)

- Magnesium citrate (prevention of kidney stones and magnesium)

- No HFCS, limit sugary products, and not adding salt (semi-keto). I get plenty of I, Na, and Cl from other foods

- Unsalted pistachios

- Unsalted cashews (very few because oxalates and gas)

- Roasted, unsalted pumpkin seeds (pepitas)

- Omega-3 foods

- Cook using avocado oil or butter

- Fresh olive oil when added without cooking

- Water, lots of water (reverse osmosis water store subscription since I live in an apartment)

- Intermittent fasting (40 lbs. / 18 kg to lose)

- Veg like broccoli and plain potato

- Limit salt, spinach, sweet potato, chocolate, tea, some nuts esp. almonds (which are also the second leading cause of breaking teeth after ice)

- Excess vitamin C creates oxalates endogenously. Megadosing it is the surest way to kidney stones

There ought to be a book: Safer Diets and Fasting: What you need to know

[justsomeuser]

So you don't eat vegetables any more?

[t0mbstone]

I still eat veggies. They are just a side dish now instead of being the main course.

Nowadays I try to eat a more traditionally "balanced" diet. I eat a decent amount of meat and dairy and eggs in addition to grains, legumes, nuts, fruits, and vegetables. I then use basic portion control to control my caloric intake and my weight.

It's been almost a year now since I abandoned pure veganism and switched back to a "normal" diet and I haven't had any more occurrences of kidney stones (knock on wood).

TL;DR: One dimensional diets are dumb.

[sto_hristo]

Went in a peanuts store to get... well... peanuts. They have all sorts of *nuts.

Before me a customer was talking to the seller about stuff. The seller offers him to try an almond coated with chocolate and cinnamon, which according to him is the best thing in the store. The customer asks if the chocolate has milk in it. Because, God forbid, he can't have anything animal related, cuz he's vegan. He wouldn't even touch it, not a single one.

These people are fanatics and unless you're a good samaritan-psychologist, don't even bother. Give them weapons and we'll be living a Game of Thrones Faith Militant episode.

[TheSmiddy]

What you are describing is not a fanatic. You are describing someone adhering to the basic tenants of their philosophy. A vegan fanatic would refuse to use cash in Australia because it contains tallow, an animal product used as a slipping agent in banknotes.

[sto_hristo]

Guy saw the Satan in the form of a coated almond. It's ridiculous. Twist it, turn it anyway you wish, you're only fooling yourself. It's extremism.

Then there are also the vegan protesters that throw themselves on the roads in front of food trucks. Adhering to their philosophy much? Faith Militants.

[TheSmiddy]

People throwing themselves in front of food trucks are fanatics. People casually asking if a food that commonly contains an ingredient their moral code prevents them from eating and then choosing not to eat it are not fanatics.

Nothing about their interaction has any impact on your life, other than maybe making you wait an extra 20 seconds in this particular case.

[albertgoeswoof]

Vegans don’t eat animal produce- including cow’s milk. Why would you expect a vegan to eat milk chocolate?

[JoeAltmaier]

There are every kind of vegan. No broad generalities cover everybody. That's how.

[Daho0n]

There are vegans and then there are non-vegans. Being a vegan and eating something non-vegan make you a non-vegan. Cows milk is not vegan.

[JoeAltmaier]

...says one vegan. I ask others, I get a different answer.

This is the typical "No True Scotsman" argument. Look it up.

[Daho0n]

Not it's not. Vegan is either or. People saying otherwise are inventing things. Look it up.