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by lightgreen 1906 days ago
> I never got a straight answer whenever I pointed out the problems

What are the problems?

6 comments

The main problem with "control who can live here" is that you would generally like children born in the place to be on the shortlist, but this would be unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause. Cities and states can't privilege natives over migrants.

Rent control and the heritability of Prop 13 are the best California can do to prioritize incumbents. They do work somewhat, but the next generation of natives is still as screwed as prospective migrants re: forming their own households in the place, at least while their parents are still alive.

Cities and states can't privilege natives over migrants.

This is causing huge problems in Utah right now. Great if you have a house (or condo/etc) you don't want, bad if you have a house you like because you might get taxed out of it, terrible if you want a house. Every house and condo has dozens of unconditional cash offers on day one.

Every state that winds up being the target of affluent people fleeing a major urban area winds up with this problem.

It's really a shame that any evenly applied attempt to privilege existing residents (not necessarily property owners) runs into legal issue.

Good, as it should be. The idea that you should get priority to live somewhere just because you were born there runs totally counter to America's founding principles. Building more housing to house more people and create more opportunity is the only morally conscionable way forward
Can you elaborate on "America's founding principles"? I'm not following your link here.
A cohort with birthright priority access to the most desirable, productive places is a kind of nobility. Hereditary privileges around land are an Old World European thing. In the American ideal the identity of your parents does not determine where you can live or what kind of life you can have.

Obviously we don’t always live up to that ideal. But this would be a big step in the wrong direction.

Going to places where nobody wants you and setting a shop there? ;-)
Every family on a quarter acre was not a sustainable plan anyway, I'm not sure how much of a "shame" it really is that the economics are crying out for more compact, walkable communities.
> this would be unconstitutional under the Equal Protection Clause

There's a lot of places where very few people can afford to live. Like Manhattan for example.

> Cities and states can't privilege natives over migrants.

If native own property they can continue living there as long as they wish.

San Francisco would like housing to remain scarce but be allocated to its favorite people, who are quite distinct from those with the highest ability to pay. This part is best achieved by an immigration policy. But that’s not allowed, so they’re stuck with imperfect substitutes. We can protect our favorite people from displacement, but it’s harder to make homes that change hands flow to them vs. tech workers.
I'm sorry I don't follow this point. Who exactly are these "favorite people" exactly, and how does California expect these "favorite people" to, overlaps notwithstanding, compete with those with the highest ability to pay all while being able to keep the state budget in tact?
What are "favorite people"? I can't find any way to see this phrase in a positive light.
The influx of relatively privileged, relatively boring tech workers is seen as destroying the city's unique value as a haven for counterculture, artists, activists, LGBTQ, etc. A common complaint is that "mainstream" people want to move here because those things make the city special, but in doing so they cause a regression to the mean.
> If native own property they can continue living there as long as they wish.

Provided they can afford to pay the ever-rising property taxes. Your take may apply in some places, but it is certainly not universal.

Who gets to decide who is kicked out? at some point there will be a bunch of people born in the city who want to buy a house but can't but of the cap. You have to consider (and policies like this don't) what happens even if no one moves into the city. In that scenario the population will still rise, until it hits the cap, at which point people have to leave.

At that point where do they go? Presumably other cities will be allowed such caps so they can't move to those either.

Then there are historical population control tools like redlining, and racist applications of eminent domain used to remove "undesirable" (a euphemism for black) neighborhoods.

By placing a cap on population you ensure that the victims of that discrimination never have the opportunity to return to the places they used to live - and as an added bonus you get to claim that your policy isn't racist because it has no stated racial bias.

Say your rental lease is up, and the only place you can find to rent is Colma. Now you've left SF are you ever allowed to return. What if someone else moved into SF while you were away thus taking your position under the cap? Honestly if anything this possibly right here could easily cause rental and housing prices to go up even more.

Then there's SF's claim to be an open and welcoming multicultural city - you can't claim that well disallowing new residents, and so new cultures, from entering.

The only real way to reduce hoisin cost is to build more housing. Where and what type you build are the only actual questions that you need to answer.

> what happens even if no one moves into the city. In that scenario the population will still rise, until it hits the cap, at which point people have to leave.

Don't we have birthrate below replacement levels?

> racist applications of eminent domain used to remove "undesirable" (a euphemism for black) neighborhoods

I'm sure white trash neighbourhoods were not welcome there as well.

Anyway, I'm not ready to continue conversation where everything is considered racist, sorry.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/living/article/Anti-Asian-and-an...

Only, there are still racially restrictive covenants on many properties to this day. Yes, in San Francisco. Thankfully, they're unenforceable, but the evidence is writ large on the legal system. And no, they didn't forbid white people from living anywhere -- if you've got reams of evidence to contradict that, show it.

Deeper dive into the history:

https://haasinstitute.berkeley.edu/system/tdf/haasinstitute_...

Frisco isn't special here, for example, Seattle's timeline (including these covenants still being on the books) is pretty much the same

https://depts.washington.edu/civilr/covenants.htm

The Bay Area (the area this article is about) was heavily redlined, and almost all (maybe actually all?) uses of eminent domain for 580 and the MacArthur maze in the Bay Area were in predominantly black neighborhoods.
Not the OP, but the ones that come immediately to mind is that a) capping the population will reduce the market and therefore increase prices and b) if you start limiting the people, the ones remaining will most likely be the rich [0] one way or another, making the market even more competitive.

[0] Unless the place is not actually worth striving to live in, but in that case you probably don't have a rent price problem.

> reduce the market and therefore increase prices

Why is that a problem?

> if you start limiting the people, the ones remaining will most likely be the rich

Why is that a problem?

> Why is that a problem?

Shelter is one of the few goods which a society necessarily needs. The alternatives (being homeless) are unacceptable. People give up food, electricity and healthcare before they give up shelter.

It's fine at a micro scale (oceanfront is expensive, but a few blocks away is affordable), but causes incredible problems at a macro scale as the bay area demonstrates (people not able to live within 50+ miles of their support networks). It is VERY hard to uproot an entire life and move to an area where cost of living is lower, especially when you are poor. People in poverty form informal local support networks (neighbors watching kids, friends that can loan you $5 to top up your phone), making it that much harder to move to a lower cost area.

> Why is that a problem?

This is like asking why high prices for food or health care are problems.

It's a necessity of life, man. Do we really need to explain why basic necessities being very expensive is bad?

> Why is that a problem?

The grand-grandparent stated:

> I enjoyed challenging my friends on what they would do to make the city more affordable.

So, when the solution results in increased pricing, his challenge was inherently failed.

> to make the city more affordable

It doesn't achieve the goal, in fact further distances it.

What’s the problem with:

1. Picking who is worthy of living in San Francisco as determined by the City and County of San Francisco

2. Removing current residents that don’t fit the criteria

And 3. Controlling who may then migrate in?

You tell me, Ford. You tell me. I have faith that you can do it. I’ll give you exactly one hint: San Francisco is not a country.

> 1. Picking who is worthy of living in San Francisco as determined by the City and County of San Francisco

No it is decided by the free market.

> 2. Removing current residents that don’t fit the criteria

Only those who rent. People who own property can continue to live there as long as they wish.

I think you’re misunderstanding my original post, and thus presenting an argument you want to make in an incomplete and easily misunderstood manner.

I apologize for the sarcasm in light of this. Cheers!

How are you going to keep people out of the city without raising prices? Also how is that fair to people who didn't have the privilege of being born in a nice city?
The problem of that solution is that the person proposing such solution lands on the list of people to kick out.

Then suddenly it's not a good solution for him anymore.