[psychiatrist24]

Obviously the age of consent can be discussed, it even varies from country to country.

I don't understand the EMACS virgin joke?

I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior". How are men and women supposed to get together? Even in a "professional setting", because the feminist claim that it is demeaning to women if somebody is attracted to them is simply wrong.

I can't claim RMS is "ok", but I'd like to see better evidence against him. Some women disliking him is not enough, either.

[mhh__]

> I don't understand the EMACS virgin joke?

The "joke" is that they are virgins and thus have to have said honour taken away from them. Bad taste aside, the issue is really that he specifically singles out women when reciting it. More detail: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/EMACS_virgins_joke

> I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior".

There's a time and a place. Ultimately it's highly dependent on context, but if women are made uncomfortable by it in this case I don't think it's unreasonable to try and stop. Also just to spell it out, the implication here is that he was only talking to her to get into her pants.

FWIW I don't believe Stallman is a deeply rooted sexist, but rather than he has certain extremely unhelful patterns in his behaviour which he is wilfully blind to. When he says he believes women deserve free software too, I do believe him, but that isn't good enough i.e. sometimes words have no meaning.

[psychiatrist24]

"The "joke" is that they are virgins and thus have to have said honour taken away from them. "

According to the article, the "virginity" of never having used EMACS before. I dunno - doesn't really move my "hate RMS" meter, tbh. Not that I think it is a joke that is necessary to be made, but not the end of the world, either.

"Ultimately it's highly dependent on context, but if women are made uncomfortable by it in this case I don't think it's unreasonable to try and stop."

According to the story, he asked her for a date, and that was it. So he did stop?

It is a nice thought to avoid things that make women uncomfortable, but it is not actually a practical rule. Sometimes you can not know beforehand what makes them uncomfortable. It also seems unfair to simply demand unattractive men should never attempt to get dates. And you should not simply give a group of people to rule over other people at their whim - if you establish that rule, women can just control everything, because anything else would make them uncomfortable. For sure they can control who gets to be made the boss of companies or organisations.

[ulisesrmzroche]

Why do you keep avoiding the details? It's public knowledge that women have been avoid Stallman's office for decades.

[psychiatrist24]

"public knowledge" - I don't know about his exploits, and I am part of the public.

I repeatedly said I can not defend him because I don't know enough about him. But I can comment on the attacks that are being launched. I have looked into the alleged "support for paedophilia" and comments of "old guy hits on young women", for example.

Maybe if you want to kick out RMS, you should compile a good overview of the public knowledge, with as many verifiable claims as possible.

[bartread]

> I don't think asking women on dates is automatically "inappropriate behavior".

In general I agree with you but in this specific instance RMS would have been about 50 years old at the time (please see my other comment in direct response to GP). 50 year old men asking out 19 year old women is very much inappropriate behaviour.

[psychiatrist24]

Serious question, why is it inappropriate? It is against the "Bro Code" from "How I met your mother", but other than that? Sure, we are trained to feel uneasy about it, but if you really think about it, why exactly? Because you consider 50 year old men disgusting? Shouldn't you leave that to the women to decide? Many people also feel a bit disgusted about gay sex, yet they are supposed to tolerate and even celebrate it.

My other thought would be it seems like a bad "investment", as the older guy will most likely die before the young woman. But these days, single parenting is the norm rather than the exception. So is it really so much worse if the partner dies than if you divorce them and exclude them from your life? Yet again, single parenting is now almost being pushed as the model to aim for. And also "rainbow families" - if your partner dies, simply find a new one, it doesn't matter if they also already have kids. It is all possible and normal these days.

[bartread]

I consider it inappropriate because whenever I've seen it happen the female on the receiving end of the older man's attention is at best extremely uncomfortable about it. I've seen it happen first hand in an organisation I was a member of on multiple occasions. Men were asked to leave over it. Left unaddressed it becomes a barrier to female involvement.

Does that mean relationships with significant age gaps are wrong? No. And I didn't say that.

But do I think it's a bit off when a much older guy meets a girl young enough to be his daughter and the first thing he does is hit on her. I make no apology for that, because I'd bet nine times out of ten the girl's going to be really uncomfortable about it.

[psychiatrist24]

So maybe the girls are ageist and should be trained out of it, for our modern tolerant society? France has a president with a wife who is 25 years older than him, and that is universally applauded.

I can relate to the feeling, but on the other hand, I don't think it is fair to demand unattractive men should remove themselves from the dating pool. Of course society cares more for young women than old men, but nobody would admit that officially.

I have personally also seen young women throw themselves at old men with power, btw.

[bartread]

> So maybe the girls are ageist and should be trained out of it

I'm not convinced that having a preference for romantic partners reasonably close to your own age is ageist any more than my own preference for brunettes over blondes makes me blondist, or my preference for women over men makes me homophobic, or somebody else's preference for same-sex partners makes them heterophobic.

We all have preferences. Some of those are based on very rational reasoning: e.g., I want to reduce the likelihood that my partner will die decades before me simply because they're much, much older than me (though of course there are no guarantees); or, I'd still like to have children so I'm not yet interested in dating post-menopausal women. Some preferences are much more emotional or physical: does this person make me hard/wet?

I'm not demanding "unattractive men" remove themselves from the dating pool. I'm suggesting that perhaps they might want to take the other person's feelings and preferences into account before foisting themselves upon them.

When I was 36 a 23 year old threw herself at me, when I was 39 a 22 year old was interested in me (I was, of course, flattered but gently demurred because I wasn't attracted to her). When it was still possible to go to nightclubs (and not that I went that often) most times I'd get my arse groped by one or more women when I was at the bar or on the dancefloor. Mostly younger, often much younger; mostly attractive. Mostly it was flattering, occasionally irritating.

This is not a flex[0], and I don't consider myself to be a particularly attractive man - especially not with 12 months of COVID flab on me - but I am acutely aware that some women at least do find older men attractive. The difference, you'll notice, is that they initiated, and the reasons I'm mostly OK with it and not creeped out even when I'm not interested is that they represent zero threat to me, they can mostly take the hint, and there's no power asymmetry in their favour.

Well, that and the fact that it's an enormous ego stroke.

That's not the way many women feel most of the time when they get unwanted attention from guys: they clearly do see us as a threat.

[0] To balance any perception that this might be a flex: I probably show romantic interest in individual women a handful of times per year and tend to go for those who are closer to my own age - at the very least into their 30s (does this make me ageist?) - and I've been turned down by plenty of them (hence still looking). I'd probably pursue more women but the reality is that once you're out of your 20s, and particularly once you're into your late 30s, the pool of available women who are close to your own age shrinks A LOT. Like REALLY a lot. Find someone when you're younger if you possibly can.

[psychiatrist24]

Again, it is a nice thought, but ultimately I don't think the rule "women should do the first step" is really what society should aim for. I'm not even sure women would want it that way.

Nevertheless, the feelings of men, even unattractive men, should also count. Since you seem to be attractive, I suspect you have zero empathy for the unattractive people out there.

And the same people who want to take down RMS for sexism are the ones who would call you homophobic for not being attracted to men and so on.

Also I don't want to defend RMS behaviour in general. He may be a creep, I don't know. Just the "he hit on a much younger girl" story seems insufficient.

[bloodorange]

> But these days, single parenting is the norm rather than the exception.

This is a rather unusual observation I have to say. How did you come to this conclusion, might I ask?

[psychiatrist24]

I didn't look it up beforehand. Just googled for it, for example here it says 57% of millenial mothers are single moms. https://comparecamp.com/single-parent-statistics/

Talk about divorce being on the rise has been going on for years.