[c_e]

Coming from a background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer), seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong is a great reminder that you should always take what you read in an internet comment section with a grain of salt, no matter how many people are nodding virtually in agreement.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with anybody learning to play piano entirely by ear and never picking up a music score. If that brings you enjoyment, that's truly fantastic, and I mean that sincerely. But for the vast majority of pianists, being unable to read sheet music will cut you off from many genres of music entirely, make in-person instruction mostly impossible, render all written pedagogical resources inaccessible to you, and enormously limit your ability to play in ensembles. Even jazz pianists who improvise and play by ear for all of their meaningful playing can read music; in fact you'd probably find that most of the really good ones are incredible sight-readers.

> These things are about a different as learning to program and learning to type in a program from a magazine.

I think a better analogy is probably something like "these things are about as different as being able to understand a spoken language, and being able to speak and write it".

[attractivechaos]

Couldn't agree more. Advanced piano pieces often come with nontrivial cords and multiple voices. Those without proper ear training can hardly recognize even a single cord, let alone replicate a whole piece just by ear. Genius born with perfect pitch may do the magic without training, but they are extreme outliers and their experience can't be generalized to the wider population. For most people, inability to read music will severely limit their reach in future.

[yqx]

Right, but a well trained ear is exactly what those who don't focus on reading music tend to have ("instead" I might add since someone focusing on reading music doesn't necessarily need to understand it, although understanding of course helps a great deal).

It's interesting that you talk about replicating pieces. This is a "peculiarly Western" way of treating musicianship (and even in the Western world it applies primarily to classical musicians). In most of the world, musicianship is first and foremost judged by ability to improvise and to perform an orally transmitted repertoire of music. Music tends to be made in an improvisatory manner, but within the rules and constraints of a particular style.

It really depends on what kind of musician you want to be. Do you want to play Western classical music, or professionally in recording studios then reading is probably essential. If you just want to make music, it might still be handy and practical but by no means required.

[NikolaNovak]

It's tricky.

I started piano lessons last year late in my life with explicit purpose to learn music theory and apply it to my limited and plateaued guitar skills.

It took several weeks to persuade my teacher that "learning music theory" is not the same thing as "learning sheet music".

I want to learn truths and relationships and connections which are separate and independent from any specific culturally and historically burdened notation.

Notation has its place and I won't claim its useless, of course its not... But i do see too many instructors think it a mandatory step when it isn't (FWIW, I've been studying music theory for a year now with tremendous weekly enlightenment and still cannot read sheet music and it's not my I'm ediate goal. If anything I find that way madness lies - math and relationships and insights of music theory are beautiful and universal and eye opening. Sheet music is a crap ton of inconsistencies we are stuck with, giving privileged view to a random scale and basicly hindering true understanding. I want to build as much understanding as I can before getting stuck in C major as a random baseline :-)

So I would say music theory to sheet music is at best math theory to written numbering system. And both are separate from any practical skill that utilizes them - just like you CAN be a great blacksmith or craftsperson with developed intuitive uderstanding of your matter, without learning blueprints and its notation (though it doesn't hurt and for some things it's necessary)

[petascale]

Sounds to me very much like "I want to learn truths and relationships about natural language that are independent of any specific culture and history", i.e. independent of any particular language and concepts like alphabets and spelling. Such things exist (like Chomsky's generative grammar), but they are of limited use in learning any particular language.

Music theory without culture and history would have to leave out things like scales, chords, chord progressions, tuning systems (like our 12-tone equal temperament), etc., since they vary between cultures and over time. I'm not entirely sure what's left, maybe the harmonic series?

Sheet music is similar to math notation or written language, and simpler to learn than either of those. It's not the only possible notation, but it's widely used and more compact than say guitar tabs or a MIDI piano roll. If you can't read/write any notation at all you will be limited by how much you can memorize, writing things down is a time-honored tradition for rememering details for yourself as well as for sharing it with others.

So I would suggest that music students learn sheet music plus any other notation that's relevant to their instrument, for the same reason I would suggest that English learners learn to read and write despite English spelling being a crapton of inconsistencies; it gives a lot more options for a modest amount of extra effort.

Can you go through life without being able to read and write, sure. I just don't see why you would want to.

[andrepd]

>I want to learn truths and relationships and connections which are separate and independent from any specific culturally and historically burdened notation.

Well there is no such thing. Western musical tradition is very different (and has different "truths") than Indian classical music for instance.

[jacquesm]

> giving privileged view to a random scale

The piano gives that privileged view as well.

There have been some attempts to remedy this (Janko) but nothing that really succeeded. The inertia to change is tremendous.

[NikolaNovak]

Agreed. I'm torn between obtaining an isomorphic I out device... And practicality of only being to play at home :-/

[jacquesm]

I have one here if you want to mess around with it you are welcome to come visit (Netherlands, hope you are close).

It is interesting, for want of a better word, it's like Dvorak to Qwerty only much worse.

[NikolaNovak]

Hah, thanks, appreciated.. I'm in Canada though so it might be impractical :)

[jacquesm]

Oh, yes, that would be a bit tricky. Well, consider yourself invited anyway if you ever make it to Europe. You wouldn't be the first HN'er from the other side of the Atlantic either to visit and that one got out alive ;)

[tobr]

> seeing highly-upvoted comments like this one that are so confident and yet so completely wrong

Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong? I’m literally just offering my personal experience from a life of playing piano, in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score.

I’m not against reading sheet music, but I’m against the idea that you somehow must do it to play this instrument, because I know it’s absolutely wrong. I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing, I’ve been able to receive in-person instructions, and I’ve certainly played in bands. I’m not really sure what “written pedagogical resources” about playing the piano would be, so not sure what to say about that.

> background as a professional music performer and educator (now a software engineer)

For what it’s worth, this is a reasonably accurate description of me as well.

[gjulianm]

> Looking back at my comment and scratching my head. In what way could it even be wrong?

Your original comments gives the impression that reading scores is "bad" somehow. The analogy of "These things are about a different as learning to program and learning to type in a program from a magazine" gives off the wrong impression. I play piano and I get what you mean, music is much more than playing a score. But the score is just a medium to learn a song. It's not "typing a program from a magazine", it's more towards "reading an algorithm description and writing the code".

> I’m not cut off from any genre I’m interested in playing,

The "I'm interested in playing" part is important. I don't think trying to play some classical piano pieces by ear is going to be easy, for example.

Is it necessary? No, of course it isn't necessary to be able to read sheet music. But it's pretty useful, not that hard, and will make a lot of things easier. You could make analogies diminishing every way to learn music (e.g., learning by ear is just like looking at a program your buddy wrote and writing the same, you're just imitating; or learning chord notation is just like writing in scratch, you're limited to the blocks someone created before) but they're not useful at all. While it worked for you, most people will actually benefit from having multiple ways to learn music.

[jacquesm]

> not that hard

I'd beg to differ. To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired. If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music, the notation is inconsistent, hard to read, requires mode shifts, requires a lot of attention and can get extremely cluttered. It is anything but easy, but of course, once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy. Just like computer programming feels easy to me. But that doesn't mean that it is easy. It's just something I've been doing all my life so the underlying complexity has been long ago internalized to a level where I'm not really thinking about the code, just about the problem I want to solve.

[gjulianm]

> To read a moderately complex piece at the speed at which it is played while playing is tougher than most other skills that I've acquired

Playing moderately complex pieces will be tough, no matter the method. Also, you're using the score to learn it, in most cases by the time you're able to play it at the correct speed you don't need to read every note, you use the score as a cue and guide. And some pieces fit with different methods, for example I find it more difficult to play pop songs by sheet music than by ear (or ear + chord notation for the harmony). On the other hand I recall Satie pieces, they're pretty easy to read but I'd really struggle a lot if I wanted to play them by ear.

> If it weren't hard then it probably wouldn't be the major reason lots of people give up music

Is it though? I'd say that the major reason lots of people give up music is because it's harder than they think, and because there usually is a disconnect between what the student expects and what the teacher wants or teaches.

> once you've mastered it completely it might feel easy

This also applies to your point. I think people would get frustrated with their professor if their way of teaching pieces was just playing it and saying "now play it" without telling them what the notes are. Playing by ear is not easy, and it's really tough for people that haven't developed a musical ear and don't know any musical theory yet. At least when reading there's a set of instructions that you can follow and advance on that.

[turtlebits]

There is a balance between memorizing/finger memory and reading across piano players.

I think the skill you are talking about is sight reading, which isn't necessarily something that is required to play the piano at a high level. No matter what, you still need to practice. A lot.

[jacquesm]

I think I'm aware of that :) That's why I wrote this software in the first place, see title of the article!

[cassepipe]

Have you got interested in alternative music notations? I've dug around and it turns out people have thought about the problem. Have you ever tried any of them?

[jacquesm]

Yes, very much so. There is this Japanese one that I really like:

https://muto-method.com/en/history.html

[jader201]

> Just mentioning this because sometimes it seems that people think the way you learn to play an instrument is by learning to play a score.

I think this is what can be a little misleading, depending on what “learn to play” means.

Yes, anyone can “play” an instrument without formal instruction/training, but it will definitely limit your abilities and potential (for the average person and most above average people).

As someone that took very little formal training and can play piano by ear relatively well and can pick out and play many tunes, my abilities and potential are quite limited. I can also read music (I’m more formally trained as a trombonist), but I’m super slow at reading and playing piano music.

Looking back, I now wish I had learned more formally.

I’m speculating this was one of the points the GP was trying to point out.

[NikolaNovak]

Per my bigger post, a lot of people are conflating "music theory" or "formal training", with "sheet notation". You will be limited performer if you don't develop an understanding of music theory at some level yes. But I've successfully challenged my music Instructor to teach me music theory without sheet music for the last year... They really aren't as inseparable as sometimes people assume :)

[palimpsests]

Are you learning music theory without learning how to read music at all?

If so, how, for example, are you talking about the concept of a dominant 7th chord? Or a ii-V-I?

[NikolaNovak]

For example, here is a music theory author that recognizes that two are separate, and therefore has two books:

Music Theory - which explicitly does not require nor teach sheet music: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1986061833/

How to read music https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/1546933301/

I have half a dozen other "music theory" books which in actuality spend 70% of the time on "reading music"; worse, this boring, discouraging, counter-intuitive cluttered part is typically first in the book (which means that interested minds will give up before ever getting to "the good stuff" :( ).

Basically I had to fight uphill battle with majority of professionals to actually learn something interesting and useful and insightful, as opposed to memorize sheet music (or memorize music theory terms without understanding / reasons why). I may one day decide to come back to sheet music, for many valid reasons; but reading sheet music is 100% not needed to discuss music theory - at least for me!

Edit: I noticed you had similar conversations in the past; it seems I had similar needs/perspective/experience as "jeofken" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25812227).

I'd be eager to continue conversation via email / chat to obtain your further perspective, if you'd be willing:)

[palimpsests]

interesting, I wish amazon would let me see inside the music theory book.

I'm just curious if they are still using note names and how this teacher is going about things... Because yes it's totally true you don't need to be able to read sheet music in order to understand theory well

Look at a jazz lead sheet for example, where chord voicings aren't usually spelled out (big band being an exception sometimes). Or in analysis e.g I - V7 - iv

[NikolaNovak]

>>how, for example, are you talking about the concept of a dominant 7th chord? Or a ii-V-I?

I mean, exactly like that :).

You don't need sheet music specifically to talk about notes and chords and scales and modes. It's just an ingrained unquestioned assumption that we do. And personally, I found it getting in the way of music theory.

There are 12 notes in Western equal temperament and you can wonderfully beautifully transpose and move things back and forth; sheet music locks you into a seeming 7 notes on a seemingly privileged scale, and makes it far far harder to develop an intuitive understanding between notes, intervals, chords, etc. I find most of my music teachers learned these things by rote, unfortunately, rather than method or relationships :-/

[palimpsests]

happy to continue the conversations.

I don't hold this assumption that you name, and it's not a part of formalized music education. which actually does emphasize method and relationships, versus rote learning. I'm curious why you think anything else would be the case. how much exposure do you have to this world? I hear that you have worked with music teachers - in what context?

also, curious to understand how many of them were coming from a jazz background?

learning to read music on the staff has no relationship to 7 notes on a privileged scale, so I'm not sure what you mean here. no note is given priority over any other note, in any clef. what makes you think that sheet music locks someone into 7 notes?

I don't intend for this to sound condescending - how well can you read music? are you speaking about all of this from the perspective of someone who has read about reading music or someone who actually understands how to read?

your comments (and those that you refer to) seem to sound like those that deride reading music as some kind of crutch or limitation in music education. I see these amusing comments a fair amount on this website.

being able to read music is having an ability to speak a shared language. like English, but with a lot smaller alphabet and an incredibly smaller set of rules. it's funny to me the degree of resistance I hear to this from people who often want to "disrupt" this language without actually understanding why it exists in the first place.

to use an analogy from mathematics, students usually benefit from learning multiplication before learning algebra as a way to see examples of logic based symbol manipulation. theory is the algebra, reading music is multiplication. that's why theory is usually taught to people who have a rudimentary understanding of the language of music.

[tobr]

Learning to play by a score is very different from getting instructions or training.

[jacquesm]

> in reaction to the implicit assumption in the post that learning to play the piano means learning to play by reading a score

And even that wasn't implied, I'm well aware of many people playing piano at a level that I can only dream of that couldn't read a score if their lives depended on it.

[ajkjk]

Of course, if they could read scores, they'd be more capable (and more employable) pianists for it, all else being equal.

[contrast]

You were literally just saying that people who learn to play an instrument and express themselves through music, if they learned how to read, were no more musicians than some who can’t actually program is a programmer.

I suppose you can argue it’s just an opinion, so therefore while it might sound condescending, arrogant and profoundly self-centred, it isn’t wrong as such. The problem with that is it wasn’t just an opinion, it was an argument. I would say that learning to become a concert pianist it a completely different thing to typing in programs from magazines, and so you are very much wrong to say that it is.

[tobr]

I have absolutely not said that if you learn how to read a score you’re not a musician. I compared learning to play an instrument by first learning to read a score to learning to program by first learning to type in a program accurately from a magazine. The similarity is that you’re trying to learn something that, while hard to master, can very quickly be fun and creative, but first you decided to learn to do a different thing that is just as hard and very tedious and only tangentially relevant. For a lot of learners, it’s likely to be a turn-off, or a distraction.

Concert pianist are not beginners, and they have chosen to focus on the type of repertoire that is completely centered around sheet music, so they are way, way outside where this analogy makes sense.

[resource0x]

Quite a few outstanding jazz performers couldn't read music. https://www.reddit.com/r/Jazz/comments/2hpzzp/who_are_some_o...

This is not to say the ability to read music somehow hurts your musical abilities. Sometimes thing are simply not that correlated. E.g. having an absolute pitch - does it help to become a great musician/composer? No one knows.

[yesenadam]

From that page: "do you even really need to read music to become a good jazz musician? It seems like everyone tells you to NOT rely on it anyways if you're just starting out,and to transcribe every sound you've ever heard in your life."

(Jazz musician here) I found the OP's "I’ve never learned to play sheet music, and have no interest in it" strange - because for me, being able to write music is far more useful than just to be able to read it. (Although reading is super-useful also, whatever the genre.) I hear something I like in the street, or in my head, or on a recording - I write it down! the notes, rhythms, harmonies. How do you do that if you can't "read music"?

Not to mention transcribing, i.e. writing out tunes and improvisations. When they're more than a certain speed, learning from just playing along with it becomes impossible, and you really have to write it down first before you start to play it.

[palimpsests]

Not really quite a few. If you look at the number of performers on that page compared to the total number of working jazz musicians, it's a completely insignificant percentage.

I have never met a working jazz musician who didn't read music, or, more fundamentally, didn't have an incredibly solid understanding of western music theory.

[askvictor]

Here's a somewhere-in-the-middle perspective. I've recently been learning the mandolin, as part of a community orchestra. I can kind of read sheet music (for the piano at least) having learnt a little piano in high school. So give me some sheet music and I can work it out after a couple of tries. I can also mostly work out a song by ear (perhaps after being given a few notes). Both are really important, and use different neural pathways and feedback mechanisms (eyes -> hands vs ears -> hands).

[mantap]

There's a huge difference between reading music and sight reading music.

Being able to read music is important because it is how musical ideas are communicated with precision.

Sight reading is a skill that is only useful in certain professional contexts and adds nothing to one's musical ability. You can safely dispense with sight reading as a skill if you will not be using it.

[jacquesm]

> speak and write

Read and write.