[plater]

All energy generation is bad for the environment, just more or less bad. Solar cells and wind power might be "renewable", but it requires a lot of metals and material to build (and also energy), they disturb natural habitat etc. They are much better than coal, oil and gas, but they are not harmless. It's better to avoid using energy if possible than using renewable energy.

[bingbong70]

Cavemen used very little energy before the discovery of fire. Are you prescribing a return to that state?

>>>Response to Dan added here due to rate limit.

> waste power

Infinite energy in the universe and everything mankind has achieved has been in large part due to energy consumption. The idea that we should now stop that trend is antihuman/antihuman-progress at its core.

Let the individual/market decide the best uses for energy... not your money = not your choice.

BTW off-planet mining using the sun/stars is a great idea for the future and doesn't require them to be blacked out.

[danShumway]

No of course not, that reading isn't any more accurate than it would be to say that you're arguing that we should set up a Dyson sphere around our sun to black out the earth and mine Bitcoin in the vast dead emptiness of space for all eternity[0]. Be careful not to inflate arguments into completely separate positions.

What GP is saying is that switching to renewables doesn't make all of the negative externalities of wasting power go away.

You shouldn't extrapolate out on that to some grand view of the world that says we should never use technology. It just means we shouldn't waste power, and we shouldn't use "solar" as an excuse to waste power.

[0]: After all, Dyson spheres are powered by renewable energy.

[bingbong70]

> waste power

> not a battery

What's a better way to losslessly and securely store human labor/time for future use? Almost everything else (fiat, gold, silver, real estate, etc...) that exists is debased/debasable, deteriorates, or loses value.

The above arguments completely hinge on energy being "wasted". Lossless labor/time storage isn't "waste" to market participants seeing a need for it and putting their hard earned money behind it.

Bitcoin basically turns one of the hardest to counterfeit things in the universe, energy, into money.

How else can you achieve lossless storage without a trustless secured environment (the bitcoin network)? Any multi-decade/multi-century solution that market participants should focus on instead?

[danShumway]

> Almost everything else (fiat, gold, silver, real estate, etc...) that exists is debased/debasable, deteriorates, or loses value.

Look, yes, Bitcoin is deflationary, but it's still subject to market pressures. It's not technologically guaranteed to be worth anything 200 years from now.

Besides that...

> securely store human labor/time for future use?

It's not secure storage if you can't retrieve it[0]. What do you mean by "lossless"? You permanently lose all of the energy when you convert it into Bitcoin. You can not get that power/energy back, it is gone. What you hope is that the value of Bitcoin will allow you to trade your coins for somebody else's energy. But guaranteed scarcity is not the same thing as lossless storage, otherwise we would store all of our Youtube videos on collectable Beanie Babies.

Bitcoin's value is based on social consensus, not because it can be converted back into electricity. You're not storing anything, you are using a scarce resource to guarantee that it will be difficult to create more Bitcoin in the future, thereby creating a deflationary currency.

> Any multi-decade/multi-century solution that market participants should focus on instead?

All of them? Most currencies have been around for multiple centuries. The US dollar has been around for multiple centuries, and the US dollar is young.

Yes, the value of the US dollar can fluctuate, but, and I can not stress this enough, so can Bitcoin's value. There is no magical technology that makes Bitcoin worth anything, it's worth what people are willing to trade for it.

----

Maybe a thought experiment will help here.

If you think that Bitcoin is genuinely storing energy in a lossless format independent of market pressure, then I should be able to create a new Bitcoin using the exact same technology because it's Open Source, and it should also be just as valuable, right? I just need enough people to join in on mining that it's difficult to commit fraud, and now my secondary coin should be just as good as Bitcoin at storing value, because it's using the same technology, the same distributed governance model, and the same electricity to power it.

Heck, I don't even need to create a new coin, I can fork the current chain; that's what Bitcoin Cash did. So let's say I fork Bitcoin's chain, and all of the exchanges that currently take Bitcoin also start taking my new coin so it's similarly decentralized.

Have I just doubled the amount of electricity in the world? No, of course not. Because the value of both coins will be based on social consensus, not because they are a perfect digitized storage medium for electricity.

----

Another thought experiment on retrieval.

Let's say tomorrow, the apocalypse hits. The US government collapses, the dollar is worthless, all governments are overthrown. Government-issued currency is only fit to burn. Gold isn't even worth its weight in food. Only Bitcoin remains.

Now, bear in mind that the Internet does not exist anymore, because the US government and a bunch of centralized, US-dollar funded corporations were maintaining it, and they're all gone. But you would like to convert your Bitcoin back into electricity, because it's a lossless store of electricity/effort.

How do you do that? How do you even trade your bitcoin when there is no network for you to connect to? A truly lossless store of electricity should be able to handle that situation, right?

[0]: https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3520#comic

[bingbong70]

>What do you mean by "lossless"?

Owning 1000 satoshis/21M BTC is guaranteed to be worth 1000 satoshis/21M BTC 100 years from now, it can not be debased.

Every fiat currency (USD, GBP, CAD, AUD, etc..) has a denominator (aka max supply) that increases. Almost every fiat currency dies a horrible death in less than a century due to this inflation. 1 British pound sterling used to buy 12 ounces of silver but is now worth 0.5% of its original value and dropping. This is not lossless time/labor storage, the denominator is increasing rapidly as central banks respond to the crisis of the day.

How does a beanie baby look after 100 years without maintenance, no deterioration? How easy is it to counterfeit a beanie baby? The problem with your approach to criticizing BTC is you believe you can isolate the properties first. All the properties I mentioned and more work together in a synergistic fashion to create a lossless time/labor energy storage network.

>I should be able to create a new Bitcoin using the exact same technology because it's Open Source, and it should also be just as valuable, right?

This would be true if we ignored one of the primary laws of money, "hardest money wins". There can literally only be one hardest money, and capital will flow into it precisely because it is the hardest and acts as the best store of value. This is where looking at BTC as technology first leads you astray, it is in fact money first. Money will flow into one rather than the other BTC fork and the one with the highest hash rate will secure value better. The network with the highest hash rate will also have a huge incentive to expedite the death of the softer/less-secure money/network through 51% attacks and more... then consume its value.

Silver was the hardest money in the world until people realized gold was more scarce and harder to mine...silver turned into a shitcoin not long after that moment. Anyone that continued to hold silver after that point suffered a tremendous loss of value... hardest money wins in action. Bitcoin is now doing this to gold and every store of value on the planet thanks to better design.

>How do you even trade your bitcoin when there is no network for you to connect to?

This is P2P money first, just because it has now scaled to 10M+ users doesn't mean it can't run like it originally did, with 1 miner and 1 node. It can scale all the way back down to the size of whatever is required in your doomsday scenario. It will still be the hardest money in the universe in that scenario since all networks will be equally affected by the blackswan, so the people that do continue using it will appreciate its lossless storage and retrieval of human labor/time energy. We already have the blockstream satellite for transactions (Puerto Ricans were using BTC while banks were closed due to no electricity after the recent hurricane) and over the next decade nodes and miners will be put in space (probably by SpaceX and other large holders pushing for multi planetary human existence)... the network hasn't gone down in 12 years and after space nodes/miners are in place, the network will never go down unless an extinction level event occurs in our solar system. It is so well designed, it is already a space money solution.

I took another run at this because the longer you take to understand these concepts the poorer you will be. This may be among the most important information you could ever receive at this moment in history but requires knowledge in ~5 disciplines to fully appreciate... ~200 years ago I would've been doing something similar by telling you to convert your silver to gold before the price plummeted into a death spiral.

[danShumway]

> Owning 1000 satoshis/21M BTC is guaranteed to be worth 1000 satoshis/21M BTC 100 years from now, it can not be debased.

That's your definition of lossless storage? Literally any limited-run asset fits into that category. It doesn't mean that your 21M BTC 100 years from now is going to be worth anything, because limited-run assets are not inherently valuable.

It certainly doesn't mean that Bitcoin is a store of electricity because, again, you can not get that electricity back once it is lost. You are hoping that other people who didn't put their electricity into Bitcoin will trade you some for an asset. That is not the same thing as retrieval.

> Almost every fiat currency dies a horrible death in less than a century due to this inflation

No? That's just very blatantly not true, to the point where I don't understand how you made that error. The US dollar is multiple centuries old. The EURO is multiple centuries old. The most common currencies today across the world are multiple centuries old.

It would be a massive stretch to try and argue that all of them have horribly died, given that I can 99.99% guarantee that right now your job is paying you in one of those currencies.

> This is P2P money first, just because it has now scaled to 10M+ users doesn't mean it can't run like it originally did, with 1 miner and 1 node.

I don't mean to be confrontational about this, but do you understand the technology behind how blockchains work? The whole point of the blockchain is to prevent double-spending. If you're waiting months to reach consensus in a P2P network, that's months before you can be sure that a transaction went through securely.

If you have 1 miner and 1 node, and if lots of people across an environment are building this setup, you have effectively mass-forked the blockchain already. You've lost the ability to prevent double-spending. The only reason Bitcoin is secure is because everyone uses the same chain and is connected to the same network. Fracturing that chain is forking. That's what forking is.

This is also why Bitcoin is having difficulty scaling, because the whole point of a blockchain is that you need network consensus and network consensus takes a lot of time/energy. The reason you can't double-spend is because your hardware is slower and less powerful than the overall Bitcoin network. A single-pool network destroys that principle.

This is also why people are worried about the environmental costs. You seem to be looking at mining as something separate from the transaction process. It's not, mining is how transactions on Bitcoin get written onto the chain. That energy cost doesn't go away, it's an intrinsic part of how transactions get confirmed and secured. The principle is that the more people you have mining, the harder it is to commit fraud. A 1-person pool is not secure.

> This would be true if we ignored one of the primary laws of money, "hardest money wins". There can literally only be one hardest money, and capital will flow into it precisely because it is the hardest and acts as the best store of value.

So in other words, it's exactly like I said and the value of Bitcoin is based on social consensus that Bitcoin has value, not on an inherent immutable property of Bitcoin itself.

You don't know that 200 years from now a better store of value won't come around, and if that happens, your own principle of "hardest money wins" will guarantee that your Bitcoin is worthless, because the newer, better store of value will be the "harder money".

> I took another run at this because the longer you take to understand these concepts the poorer you will be.

No offense, but I think this is part of the reason why people compare Bitcoin to a pyramid scheme. I do understand the tech of Bitcoin and the economic theory about it. I've been hanging around this circle and listing to the talks and proponents since early 2013-2014. I've dug into the algorithms that make this work and listened to the economic theories that early proponents were using to justify their experiment. What that experience has given me is an understanding that this process isn't magic.

So you use words like "space money solution" which means nothing for a network that requires real-time consensus to confirm transactions. You're saying that the network literally can't go down, which displays a wild misunderstanding of how mining actually works and why it's important to the technology. You seem to be under the impression that Bitcoin is magical just because it's complicated. But as someone who has genuinely been in this space for a long time and genuinely spent a bunch of time learning how the technology works, most of the magical properties you think exist... don't.

You're buying into a technology that you don't understand, based on wildly flawed economic ideas like "deflationary assets can't go down in value", an idea that can easily be proven false just by looking at the history of literally any other deflationary asset. Never mind the fact that silver and gold are also deflationary assets in the long term; apparently they don't count because they physically degrade, a process that hard drives are magically immune from. Never mind the fact that you yourself seem to understand that silver dropped in value when gold took over; apparently that can't possibly happen with Bitcoin because it would be impossible for anyone to iterate on the technology. We should all just buy into this idea because you said the words "space money".