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by ConceitedCode 1907 days ago
While there are certainly issues, the issues are more with the procurement process than the actual aircraft.

Virtually every single aircraft program has been flogged by the press for being too expensive and less capable than the aircraft it replaced. This included the F-111, the C-5, the F-14, the F-15, the B-1, the F-16, the A-10, the F-18, the C-17, the B-2, the V-22, the F-22, and now the F-35. Overall the track record for these aircraft turned out to be outstanding, far exceeding the capabilities of their predecessors.

The actual track record for the F35 has been very positive. Most the reports I've seen from pilots are generally very positive [1].

Other countries continue to buy it over other platforms [2].

Most the major complaints are around costs compared to the aircraft that are being replaced, but this isn't a fair comparison.

As for the cost to fly the F-35, a unit measure the Air Force terms “cost per flying hour,” today the F-35 costs around $35,000 per flying hour. Comparative aircraft in this class are generally in the mid $20,000s, a target the F-35 is slated to hit by 2025. However, it must also be remembered, as the F-35 pilot’s above comment highlights, far fewer F-35s can accomplish far more with fewer aircraft than legacy aircraft types. It does not require a math major to understand this yields far lower real-world total costs to achieve a particular mission result. [3]

[1] https://www.businessinsider.com/italian-pilots-raved-about-f...

[2] https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2019/5/24/i...

[3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davedeptula/2020/07/20/f-35-pro...

5 comments

The F-111 was a capable strike aircraft once they worked out the intake issues, but failed as a Navy interceptor and was inadequate as a strategic bomber

The C-5 suffered expensive wing cracking issues early in its life and even after that was fixed it had the lowest reliability of any Air Mobility asset

The F-18 was short on range and bring-back payload compared to its predecessors and had to be redesigned mid-life into a basically new aircraft

The B-1 was cancelled once and brought back as a less capable but horrifically expensive-to-maintain aircraft that failed to replace its predecessor

The F-14 was cursed with inadequate engines that hampered its flexibility and it had crippling maintenance requirements

The C-17 is one of the most expensive methods of moving payloads ever invented, since it is compromised by tactical requirements that aren't relevant to its actual role

And those are just off the top of my head.

So much in invested into so few platforms these days that they simply have to be made to work to a tolerable level. The fact that they remain in service is more a reflection on need rather than merit.

And in case of F-14, it was politically motivated penny pinching that led to TF30 engines being used - when they were supposed to only be temporary option to make testing quicker and cheaper.
When it comes to sensor fusion, there isn't a fighter jet out there that's better than the f-35! The issue is that the f-35 program failed to deliver a low-cost replacement for the f-16, and the program used a couple of practices (concurrent delivery/development, and shared components between airframes) that have a sketchy history in defense contracting. IMO, it's a great plane, but built in a time where near-peer pressure isn't as strong as it is now, and some very contractor favorable terms crept in.
Does sensor fusion even work? Last time I've read about it the story stated pilots turn off all but one relevant one to actually get targets because it messes everything up.
Wow, the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 were all first flown in the 70's. The F-35 was 2006. It's easy to see some of the motivation for the F-35: there were a silly number of fighter models built in that decade.
Well the B-2 definitely was and still is too expensive with its ultra-sensitive coatings :)

But a lot of the others you mention did complete on budget. The extreme cost overruns are a relatively recent thing.

"Many of the F-16's past problems are mirror images of the issues we see in the F-35. According to the article, the Air Force expected the F-16's research and development costs rose by some $7 billion to reach $13.8 billion by 1986.... The fly-by-wire mechanism of the F-16, in which an aerodynamically unstable but highly maneuverable aircraft was tamed by computers to keep it flying, was an expensive problem that was eventually solved. Like the F-35, the F-16 had problems with its engine and also had to be modified to placate U.S. allies who wanted a fighter capable of air-to-ground missions, a real multi-role fighter. " [1]

Almost all of them have similar stories from what I've seen. To be fair, most of these were developed before I was born so I certainly could be missing some context from that time period.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a21587/197...

If you read the source article, that's not what it actually says. What it says:

>Program costs—originally estimated at $4 billion for the United States — increased by $7.7 billion last year with $6.3 billion of this resulting from the addition of 73 F‐16B two‐seater aircraft to the program. The Air Force believes it can justify the addition of the other $1.4 billion.

So... it increased $7.7B with $6.3B of that being additional planes ordered.

That's a FAR cry from the F-35 costs which increased... because increase. Not because more orders were placed.

The F-35 program is at $1.8 TRILLION dollars, the F-16 would have needed to be $360 BILLION to be equivalent waste. They're not even in the same universe.

>The F-35 program is at $1.8 TRILLION dollars

That is the projected costs for it's lifetime, i.e., through 2070, an astounding 50 years from now. It is not at 1.8T in spending at the moment.

You're not comparing the same things.

The total cost of the F-16 program which was started in 1973 (an astounding 48 years ago) isn't anything approaching $360 billion.

I am comparing the same thing.

No, you're not. You're not accounting for inflation. You're not accounting for capability. You're not accounting for length of service times number of planes. You're not accounting for sales. You're not accounting for a host of relevant factors.

You're simply taking two numbers, looing at the nominal values, and doing a simply multiply, then concluding these are equivalent waste. You ignored so many relevant factors that it makes this simplistic "comparison" irrelevant.

You'd think they'd have learned from their mistakes and included the air to ground missiles from the get go this time
Stealth coatings have proven to not be able to survive the real world on at least three major recent aircraft: B-2, F-22, and F-117. Stealth is nice, but a plane you cannot fly in the rain without destroying it's outrageously expensive coating is not really very practical.
Yeah but sometimes you want to reach out and bomb someone without the knowing what's coming
My recollection is that the only aspect of the F-22 people screamed about was the price.
Which now looks like damn near a bargain compared to the financial black hole that the F-35 has turned into.
Um, what? F22 program cost about $334 million per aircraft and is roughly $60k per hour of flight.

F-35 is a comparative bargain at $95 million and $35k/hour.

> Um, what? F22 program cost about $334 million per aircraft and is roughly $60k per hour of flight.

> F-35 is a comparative bargain at $95 million and $35k/hour.

But that might not be a fair comparison. IIRC, the F-22 project was ended far earlier than originally planned, so development costs were amortized over far fewer planes.

According to Wikipedia, there were only 187 non-test F-22s built in total (out of an originally planned 750) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-22_Raptor), but there are already "620+" F-35s and production continues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_F-35_Lightning...).

The big complaint now about the F-35 (and the goalposts keep shifting) is the cost per flight hour. This should get better as the Air Force trains more maintainers, and LockMart actually starts to provide the level of parts/supplies they are contractually obligated.
And one day the maintenance software might even work instead of being constant worry
Apples to oranges. The last block of F22s had a flyaway cost of $137 million.[1] At the F35A volume of 1000+ the costs would not be majorly different.

[1] https://archive.is/aPCca

Wasn't the F-22 actually good at something, though?
From what I get the F-22 is still the best air superiority fighter.