[carmen_sandiego]

Cool design + polymer, but they should probably just abolish the £50 already. Very few places accept them. Never mind the £100 notes you can get in some parts of the UK. I would say they should encourage better acceptance of these denominations, but cash seems to be dying in general.

I look to Switzerland with envy, where as far as I can tell you can stroll into the supermarket and drop a 1000-franc note without issue.

[dblooman]

>Very few places accept them

I have heard this since I was a kid, in reality, it isn't true, at least not in London. I have never been refused when presenting a £50, not that I have carried them more than a dozen times. Most places that have issues taking them are small merchants who give away too many notes breaking them, so will often ask for a smaller note. When I was in New York once, I went into a CVS and bought $60 of sweets to bring home, the cashier shouted 'bill check' when i presented a $100 bill, so I guess I look more dodgey in the US.

[gambiting]

Well, I had the opposite experience here in the North East - when my dad came over to visit he had a bunch of £50 notes he got from the cash exchange office and we literally couldn't spend them. He wanted to buy some jewlery for my mum and the store wouldn't take his notes. Few other places around the town wouldn't either. We literally ended up going to the branch of my bank and changing them for £20 notes and suddenly it wasn't a problem anymore.

It's just dumb. UK government should definitely drive a larger adoption of the £50 notes, it's so bizzaire to me that the British population treats their own banknotes like something from the moon.

[StavrosK]

The hell? It's unimaginable to me that places wouldn't accept a 50 EUR bill... Sure, the delivery guy complains a bit if you haven't told them beforehand you need change for it, but any shop is fine to accept it. 100 is less common, though still probably okay, even a 200 will mostly get curious looks, though for a 500 bill they'll need to copy your ID.

[dcminter]

I don't agree that it's dumb - at least not from the government's point of view. High denomination bank notes are very useful for tax evasion. What's in it for them?

[gambiting]

>>High denomination bank notes are very useful for tax evasion

How so? And if this is an actual, real problem...then stop printing them? What's the point of making currency that normal citizens have issues using?

I just don't undestand it on some fundamental level. Where I'm from(Poland)_200PLN(about £40) notes are very common in circulation, and if you were to pay for a 5PLN loaf of bread with a 200PLN banknote I can guarantee literally no one would bat an eyelid. It's a common and completely normal banknote to use.

Yet in UK, where people make more money on average and also buy more expensive things, the £50 is some alien piece of paper that most Brits have never even seen. The only other place which treats its own currency with such disdain is Germany where I saw signs on petrol stations sayng they don't accept 500 Euro notes. Well if you don't, then why even have them? What's the point? The government should be going after all retailers who don't accept any official currency, because that seems like the very basis of working currency system.

[dcminter]

Most Brits pay with debit cards or credit cards. This leaves an audit trail.

https://www.ft.com/content/afe8ed5a-cd10-11e5-986a-62c79fcbc...

I think you're conflating twoo things as well. Retailers don't like high denomination notes because they're more likely to be forgeries (getting change from a low value purchase with a high denomination note is a simple way to launder forged notes)

Governments don't like them because of tax evasion (though they'll call it "anti money laundering because not all upstanding citizens are entirely averse to a spot of cash-in-hand money laundering).

I presume there's just enough demand from business (where using high denomination notes for high value B2B transactions has very low transaction costs) that they still print them, but I would be surprised if they're still around in a decade.

[PeterisP]

The explanation for not accepting 500 eur notes when you generally sell stuff for <100 euros is that you're asserting that your cash drawers won't have 400+eur in cash so you can't ever give out change from a 500.

However, if you're making a jewelry purchase with multiple 50 quid notes, denying them would seem unreasonable.

[boring_twenties]

$100 bills are routinely checked in the US, but almost never refused IME.

[Fern_Blossom]

You can't refuse legal tender as a business in the US. If you suspect counterfeit bills, you need proof (the marker or it lacks some security feature like watermark or strip) and then you're supposed to call the police immediately about it. You can refuse the sale in general... but that's a tricky one left to someone else to answer.

[boring_twenties]

You absolutely can, unless it's being offered to settle a debt.

[galangalalgol]

Can they refuse a valid bill legally?

I have seen places checking $5 bills in some parts of town.

[carmen_sandiego]

Generally, a private business doesn't have to transact with you, so yeah they can just say "no I don't want to sell you this if you're going to use a hundred dollar bill".

Legal tender is only a thing for the settlement of pre-existing debts.

[Fern_Blossom]

No, it's policy in every single chain store to do bill checks on 50s and 100s, regardless of what you look like. Those are the most common counterfeit denominations. Quite a few places do 20s as well. When I worked at an office supply store, the store manager checked our tills at the end of the day, if bills 20 or above didn't have a marker on them, I got in trouble.

[neilwilson]

Sheep farmers in the hills of Northumberland trades flocks with rolls of £50 notes.

Very difficult to get contactless working in the midst of the Cheviots.

[dan-robertson]

The problem was that £50 notes were most likely forged, I think, although I don’t know how true that was. So the solution surely isn’t to get rid of the notes as that just shifts the forgery to the next note down. Surely instead the solution would be higher valued notes being created. But:

- I don’t really think the problem is forgery. I think it’s that it is annoying for a lot of shops to make change for £50.

- I don’t think the government is particularly interested in making cash more convenient for people (card transactions are easier to track) and wealthy people mostly aren’t interested in carrying around high-value notes as credit cards exist.

[hnlmorg]

In my experience most places were hesitant because they didn't have the change in the cash register. Anywhere busy with a full register accepted £50 notes happily.

edit: to add to that, it used to be that £1 coins were the most forged in sterling cash. I can't say if that's still the case, but at one point it felt like 1 in 3 pound coins were a fake.

[RobertKerans]

Yep, my experience as well. I worked in a busy club all through university, and we never had an issue accepting £50 notes, but at the quiet bar I sometimes worked at we were sometimes hesitant to accept them as it tended to wipe out the float.

Minor, and probably specific to busy bars, but it did come up: there's also the practical issue of where you put a £50 note as there's no space for it in a register. So you kinda shove them at the bottom of another stack, but there's the danger that when you're very busy and handing change back you'd grab it without looking. So always had to tell another staff member there was a £50 in the register, and ideally that register got emptied asap.

[samizdis]

Not quite one in three, but quite a lot. Here's a relevant bit from the Wikipedia page [1] :

> During later years of the round pound's use, Royal Mint surveys estimated the proportion of counterfeit £1 coins in circulation. This was estimated at 3.04% in 2013, a rise from 2.74%.[9][10] The figure previously announced in 2012 was 2.86%, following the prolonged rise from 0.92% in 2002–2003 to 0.98% in 2004, 1.26% in 2005, 1.69% in 2006, 2.06% in 2007, 2.58% in 2008, 2.65% in 2009, 3.07% in 2010 and 3.09% in 2011.[40][41] Figures were generally reported in the following year; in 2008 (as reported in 2009), the highest levels of counterfeits were in Northern Ireland (3.6%) and the South East and London (2.97%), with the lowest being in Northwest England.[42][43][44] Coin testing companies estimated in 2009 that the actual figure was about twice the Mint's estimate, suggesting that the Mint was underplaying the figures so as not to undermine confidence in the coin.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_pound_(British_coin)

[varispeed]

It's also that people don't care much about coins. When I used cash more back in the day, I remember going through my change from time to time and I had coins from all over the world passing as pence coins.

[dspillett]

> it used to be that £1 coins were the most forged in sterling cash

IIRC that is/was only in number though, not total value.

[dspillett]

> The problem was that £50 notes were most likely forged, I think

That was what we were told back when I worked in a small shop in a theme park in the late 90s. That combined with the fact that because we rarely saw them people tended to be worse at picking out fakes than they were with smaller denomination notes.

We were to ask people to go to the cash office at the front of the site to have large notes swapped for smaller currency, £10 and lower. The reason we gave the customer (which as you mention had the benefit of also being true, even though I was very much given the impression it wasn't management's primary concern) was that it would take all the change from out tills. We would accept £20s, though the sign up front suggested they be changed first too.

> solution surely isn’t to get rid of the notes as that just shifts the forgery to the next note down

The recognisability helps with lower denomination notes though. And taking a forged £50 is more of a hit than taking a forged £10 amongst others.

> Surely instead the solution would be higher valued notes being created.

The solution we are heading towards, more rapidly now due to C19's effects, is cashless. I still have a few coins in my running pouch in case I need to use a non-free public convenience and a few of notes in my wallet just in case the cards fail, but I don't think I've actually used cash at all in the last 12 months and that may remain the case once This is all over (there is a local corner shop that won't take contactless or other card payments for less than £10 - I simply don't go to that shop any more as that is inconvenient for me for single small items so I do without for now or walk further, and for needs >£10 I'll walk further to a larger store with more options anyway).

[londons_explore]

Making Change for a £50 really isn't hard - it's 2 20's and a 10. Those notes that the cash register is probably already full of...

[Symbiote]

This is exactly right: you can easily accept £50 notes, because you almost certainly already have some £20 notes which have no purpose — other than making change for purchases of ≤£30 with a £50.

[notahacker]

> The problem was that £50 notes were most likely forged, I think, although I don’t know how true that was. So the solution surely isn’t to get rid of the notes as that just shifts the forgery to the next note down. Surely instead the solution would be higher valued notes being created

The £50 notes were perceived as "most likely forged" because - in addition to being temptingly large denominations - they're so rare the average person has never used one and doesn't really know what they look like. There's a vicious circle of course: ATMs don't dispense them and banks are unlikely to unless requested because they're not widely accepted. The £20 note doesn't have that problem.

[luckylion]

What do people do then, do they just get lots of 20ies, or are they mostly paying electronically for anything > £20?

We have the a similar issue in Germany, but it's mostly with 200€ notes (and 100€ notes for a small shop, maybe). I've never had anyone even as much as look annoyed to being handed 50€.

[notahacker]

Mostly electronic payments for everything now, but you could fit a lot of twenties in a wallet (or write a cheque to pay a bill) when card payments weren't so widespread.

[Symbiote]

Many places in London accept them (tourists often bring them, and higher prices make them more useful). With a new, secure design, I expect many more places will start.

[carmen_sandiego]

That's true, the one place I see them most often is being smuggled out of China. Actually I have gotten them from cash machines in Covent Garden before as well. Since then I've wondered what criteria they use to pick denominations for each area.

[paublyrne]

I would assume the criteria is what mixture of denominations will require the least regular servicing. An area where the average daily withdrawal is high - ie a wealthy area - will run out more quickly if it's giving out small denominations, but in an area where smaller amounts will quickly be unable to provide the requested amounts if they're serviced with mostly higher ones.

[Symbiote]

It's probably difficult to find something to buy for £5 around Covent Garden, and no problem to spend £50. I'd much prefer some £50 notes than an empty cash machine.

There's also a high cash demand from tourists, and a high nighttime demand (when machines won't be refilled).

> smuggled out of China

That's unfair: completely honest tourists often have £50 notes, regardless of where they come from. The currency exchange office prefers high-ish denominations of most currencies. They take up less space, which matters when everything has to fit in a safe, and are generally in better condition.

[carmen_sandiego]

Sorry, when I say "smuggled out of China", I don't mean it was illicitly gained cash or anything. China doesn't allow the export of currency above a certain (pretty restrictive) amount, so people sneak it out. I don't agree with that rule and it's not illegal to import that money to the UK, so I didn't intend any negative meaning with my comment. But since it is illegal in China, I think smuggling is the right term.

Anyway, the relevance to our conversation: since value density is highest with £50 notes, that's what they tend to bring.

[globular-toast]

Giving tourists very high value notes to spend is a brilliant trick.

[smoe]

1000 CHF bill are not really practical in Switzerland. Can’t remember seeing them as an option on many atms. And the only shops that will accept them are those where purchases are regularly in the several hundred francs range. But even in the large supermarket chains they might ask you to go change the bill at the nearest bank or postal office first if you try the buy a pack of chewing gum with it.

[nickik]

People look at you funny if you have a CHF1000 note. But most shops will accept them fine.

[lifeisstillgood]

Sadly they will become acceptable most places soon - inflation will take care of that. I remember bars refusing to take twenty's as the night wore on. Now you can barely get a round out of a twenty.

[jayflux]

I don’t see this happening.

I’m sure (as far as bars go) contactless payment will be preferred more in future. COVID has sped up the process of that. It’s unlikely to see many £50 notes around. There were already a lot of “card only” bars in London and that was pre-COVID.

Also inflation is low and will be low for quite some time so that won’t be a factor.

[DocTomoe]

Ever since I've blamed myself in Scotland in 2019 when I tried to pay for a group of friends and the restaurant had a random "no foreign credit cards" rule, cash is and always will be king when it comes to the UK for me.

In many countries, accepting cash is legally required. Unless a foreign national can pay with their credit card reliably, such a rule should be the required fallback payment method.

[tialaramex]

The UK (and I would expect many countries) does not require merchants to sell anything to you if they don't want to. They're allowed to decide they don't like your money, and too bad you can't buy anything.

Some constituent countries of the UK have legal tender laws but a legal tender law only applies to debts and you have not incurred a debt when you offer to buy something.

[DocTomoe]

Actually, when I sit in a restaurant, as I did, and have just finished my meal, as I have, and ask to pay via card (as the sticker in the lobby told me is possible), I have incurred a debt, which I am willing to pay, either by card, or should that not be possible, with cash as a legal tender fallback.

In pubs that are card-only, pay-first, you might have an argument - but this may become a discrimination lawsuit the moment my card gets denied when the sticker says it should be accepted.

[notahacker]

A UK quirk is that banknotes are not legal tender in Scotland, so you might still need a bag of coins in that restaurant :)

[midasuni]

£20 in 2020 was £10 in 1994 - 26 years ago.

£20 in 1994 was £10 in 1981 - 13 years before.

£20 in 1981 was £10 in 1975

Before that 1969 and 1950

So that’s doubling in 19,6,6,13,26

So inflation is at long time record lows despite the last period including the 08 crash and covid

[lifeisstillgood]

I am not sure about this. I know there is a lot of controversy over inflation measures (mostly the basket of goods used, impact of tech in holding down the basket)

I take a unscientific approach in that I had a bar menu from 1971 (my birth year) showing the prices in old and new money. A pint of Skol was 5 new pennies in 1971, and today you can find an equivalent pint of lager at about 5 pounds.

So that's 100 fold increase in my lifetime.

A lot of that came out of the 70's and early 80s but current inflation does, anecdotally, seem higher than 1-2% a year.

[midasuni]

Not based on my family outgoings, but if you want to use gut feeling rather than scientific measures that’s fine.

Ale prices themselves have increased 73% since 2000, lager 85%, according to beerandpub.com

Annecdoatally in 2002 I was paying £1.60 in a student bar in the south west. Earlier this year I paid over £5.50 in a sam smiths in london, you might think it’s increased, but those were two very different pubs though. London prices are far higher than the majority of the country, and the range is even higher now. Perhaps CPI should be measured on a regional basis, as rents in london increased due to high demand and high paying jobs, prices of goods and services had to also.

Since 2008 according to the British beer and pub association, annual beer inflation has been 2.8%. The most expensive beer since 2008 has increased on average 5% a year.

Beer will be higher inflation than other measures like Big Macs as the tax has increased on it - both duty and vat. Pre tax beer prices were 1.43 in 2002, 1.91 in 2008 and 2.42 in 2019.

That’s an 08-19 increase of 2.2%

[albertgoeswoof]

Excluding housing and university fees, because that’s magic money

[midasuni]

Fees were a problem back in 1999 but they creased to be an issue in 2005 when they were added to income contingent repayments. Other tax rates or indeed disposable income isn’t included in that measure

CPIH figure includes houses, under that £20 today was £10 in 1990, so even lower.

[dkdbejwi383]

I thought we chopped down all the magic money trees?

[mhh__]

The magic money tree only applies if you are buddies with members of the cabinet, silly.

https://sophieehill.shinyapps.io/my-little-crony/

[raverbashing]

I have to agree that I like being able to pay with cards, however I think paper (or, well, plastic) money still has it place.