[teterphiel]

> But it is just insufficiently sophisticated people that would conclude from that [getting shot for the crime of border crossing] they were lacking freedom.

Translation: East germans getting shot at the border were just too dumb to realise that they were free...

> Surely it is just to shoot somebody for such an egregious violation of other people's freedom

Translation: Refusing to have their labor wasted on a defunct system, thereby depriving others of its non-existent fruits, soundly earned one's capital punishment, to be carried out on the spot. It was "Notwendig".

> They did have freedom, but just had a different definition for it.

And surly they did have less radiation poisoning due to a different definition of what it means to be "poisoned".

EDIT: How could I miss this misanthropic gem:

> some stupid redneck

Translation: I know only cliches about the discarded working class trapped in the American rust belt, but treating them with contempt seems fun and acceptable, so I'll join.

[rklaehn]

Sorry that this was not clear, but my comment was deeply sarcastic. I thought the "Rant over" was sufficient as a sarcasm marker.

I think the "stupid redneck" definition of freedom, which I share, is way better than the "sophisticated philosopher" definition I mentioned.

I see a very worrying tendency, in the context of Covid, to re-establish the absurd GDR/Hegel definition of freedom in German state tv and other media. People seem unaware what a fundamental change that is.

E.g. https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/panorama/hegel-geburtstag-fre... https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/mit-hegel-durch-die-cor...

Regarding Hegel's definition of freedom:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/state-sovereign-political-e...

"To Hegel, the state was the culmination of moral action, where freedom of choice had led to the unity of the rational will, and all parts of society were nourished within the health of the whole."

To me, this is hell...

[_0ffh]

Totally with you! If we want to talk in German philosophers I suggest Nietzsche, like this:

>>A state, is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly lieth it also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: "I, the state, am the people."<<

Or like this:

>>Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.<<

[rklaehn]

Love Nietsche. This is also good, on the subject of government:

To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so. To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon