This is a survey of people who joined MENSA. I would posit that most normal, healthy, high-IQ folks never bother, and there's a selection bias at play.
I went to their meetings a couple times by invitation, and it never really "clicked" - for many of their members, their MENSA membership and related activities are a big part of their identity and their life, and I wasn't able to connect. I heard the same thing from a couple of friends who also met their entrance criteria, and there's certainly a lot of selection bias. Which is fine, but it's not representative by any means.
I joined at a young age and after a couple of meetings realized it made no sense at all to me. Joining a club because you have a high IQ is like joining a club because you have a leg or a head. I think immutable attributes in general just aren’t enough to hold a group together, or at least make it interesting. Could be wrong on this one, though.
> Joining a club because you have a high IQ is like joining a club because you have a leg or a head
That's a bit too loose analogy. A more precise is like joining because one is tall.
While the principle still somewhat holds, the difference is in the consequences. One may join Mensa because they're likely to find people with similar tendencies/interests, as much as tall people may like certain sports.
Where are all of the satisfied Mensa members? Every time Mensa gets brought up a whole swarm of dissatisfied former members shows up to explain how it's not worth attending, and yet the organization persists. What's the other side of the story?
The selection bias works the other way as well: people who are happy with their Mensa social group get their social contact from that and don't bother hanging out on HN.
Maybe it's actually HN that attracts dissatisfaction? /jk It's a well known phenomenon that people are more likely to speak on the negative/critical opinions they have than to go out of their way to give praise.
So, first, Mensa groups vary considerably across countries (US has many people that seek some activity after retirement; in Hong Kong some seem to be attracted by the mensa email they can put on their CV; in Germany it seems a fairly mixed bunch, many of which are bored in their parochial hometown).
But I thought membership was well worth it. Discussions about random arcane topics, meetings and conferences, contacts when traveling, dating, a fairly open and tolerant social circle, etc.
I know of two Mensa members. They don't seem to be dissatisfied, but they don't seem to be active in it either. Maybe it depends on the expectations one has before joining.
The friend who invited me was (and is) a happy member - he skips the large meetings/gatherings and simply uses the network to find folk with similar interests.
To me, as an outsider, I don't see the immediate purpose of the club. I imagine most clubs are about activities or a mission.
I used to go social dancing and the purpose of that group of people was to dance, and they would have various events all about dancing or improving your dancing. If you join a social justice or politically minded group, I imagine your purpose is to engage in activities to further your ideals. But to join a club where there are other smart people... your goal is to what? Share interesting puzzles with each other? :D Try to make other people smarter?
I think you're only looking at "smart people" as people who want to share how smart they are. You seem to be ignoring the social isolation that can come with it. Your interests might no be similar to those around you, if you're a child you might be able to meet others who are different in the same way, etc.
I very rarely discuss IQ since so many people are hostile to it. A high IQ makes you different. Sometimes it's subtle, like as an adult you'll typically have different interests compared to a lot of peers, and other times it's far less subtle, like when you're a school aged kid and you're always made to feel different (FYI most school aged kids don't want to feel different).
I suppose so. It's probably more akin to a club for tall people, or a club for twins. There are things specific to who you are in those cases that outsiders wouldn't "get" and I can see the value in meeting up with those folks to feel a sense of belonging.
I feel like it is because it's a group of people in the same field, which is constantly changing. There are topics related to the group that make sense to discuss.
With smart people, I suppose any topic is on the table. It's not specific enough for me.
It seems like most commenters are in software engineering or related jobs. But it doesn't appeal to lots of people in those fields. There are biologists and truck drivers too. And lots of people have pointed out most companies are tech companies now.
Most topics here might interest people for professional reasons. But they include things like "High IQs are associated with mental and physical disorders" too. People love to debate politics. And "Is the Ship Still Stuck?"[1] is the top article right now.
> for many of their members, their MENSA membership and related activities are a big part of their identity and their life
That's the case for many people that join a club, though, be it chess, functional programming, golf, gardening, or what have you, and happens naturally if that's where you spend a good chunk of your free time.
I haven't taken an IQ test since... A billion years ago, so maybe it's the same, but having taken the LSAT, you can certainly learn them. My first LSAT I ever took was 78 percentile, whereas by the end I was scoring 95-98 with relative ease.
A normal IQ person can improve their IQ/LSAT/GRE test score with appropriate training, but a higher IQ person will tend to score proportionally higher given the same training.
Not exactly. There may be some correlation, but there are certainly people who can get in via an aptitude test who would not be able to get in using an IQ test. The testing methods are completely different.
There is so much correlation that the correlation of an aptitude test with an IQ test is basically equal to the correlation of one IQ test with another IQ test. (Around 0.8) By any definition other than "it can't be an IQ test unless that's part of its name", the aptitude tests are IQ tests. They do not differ in function.
A person can improve an aptitude test score with some appropriate training, but a higher IQ person will tend to score proportionally higher given the same training/experience.
First of all, over 6 of the test listed do not give results in IQ points. So they're not nominally IQ tests.
Second, and more substantially, here's an explicit clarification for one of them (LSAT):
"The LSAT is not an IQ test. It does not measure intelligence the way IQ tests are designed to measure innate ability. A person who is very smart can receive a low LSAT score."
You can find similar declarations for the others (non-IQ) tests listed.
The LSAT is not an IQ test. It does not measure intelligence the way IQ tests are designed to measure innate ability. A person who is very smart can receive a low LSAT score.
What's interesting in the context of the post is that apparently I qualify for MENSA on the basis of several test yet have had not the slightest inkling to even figure that out, nor absolutely any interest in joining now that I know.
Maybe MENSA is a representative sample of smart people, but I have a lot of friends and colleagues I consider much smarter then me and none of us are in MENSA, so I'm skeptical.
What I find interesting on that page is that the more recent (past 2-3 decades) college preparatory tests (e.g. SAT) are not accepted as substitutes to IQ tests. Shows the trend of dumbing down the tests, I guess.
That is odd. If the tests were simply dumbed down, wouldn't Mensa just raise the required score? The implication is that these tests have become less IQ-correlated. I'd be interested to see a comparison in the type of questions from the 70s vs today.
Responding in a vacuum, but the other explanation could be that these tests fail to discriminate at the high-end. If everyone with a high score is squished together, raising the floor just amplifies relative noise
That's exactly what they did - they have 3 bands of years for the SAT. Two year bands (<1974, 74-94) are accepted with different scores, and the more recent tests (94+) are not accepted.
The major change in 1994 was the allowance of calculators during the math portion. I don't know why MENSA couldn't make a similar score adjustment here.
Probably less reliable and more overhead. You have to constantly evaluate what the new equivalent score and who knows, maybe even the max score isn't good enough anymore.
You have to frame it in familiar terms for Mensa members:
What conclusions can you draw from the following sentence?
"I would posit that most normal, healthy, high-IQ folks never bother, and there's a selection bias at play."
a) All Mensa members are unhealthy.
b) There may exist some normal, healthy, high-IQ folks in Mensa.
c) All Mensa members have high IQ.
d) No Mensa member has high IQ.
My contention would be that many (not all) people are drawn to Mensa because they have difficulty forming relationships in mainstream society. I’d suggest it’s this trait that correlates with mental and physical disorders.
He's saying that, on average, a high IQ person does not find Mensa valuable or interesting and so does not bother to join.
Whereas, someone who is lonely, searching community, depressed, etc and _also_ has a high IQ would be more likely to apply and join.
The fact that you happen to be normal, healthy, and a Mensa member isn't particular important when speculating about the possible selection bias. Although, we are just speculating.
Yeah, I was well aware what the implication was :) I was just stirring the pot really...
It's always interesting to read the general sentiment towards Mensa members — implying they join out of "loneliness" or "depression" is a hilariously unfounded assumption. I agree that Mensa is fairly pointless overall, but in my experience, its members are generally pretty representative of the general population.
I did that! Doubt I'm the person you're thinking of but it was something to put on my otherwise empty resume that would have consisted of jobs at Burger King and a oil change store. Once I had my first professional job under my belt, I left it off. No idea if it helped or hurt getting that first job but I suspect if nothing else it gave me a bit of confidence going into those first interviews after university.
This was not that situation and I have no issue with someone young and bright using it (Mensa) to get their foot in the door. My guy was middle-aged, from privilege and used Mensa and other BS accomplishments to swindle people into thinking he was some sort of tech luminary.
This is a common discussion point amongst members, and almost everybody agrees it's a terrible idea. (Unless you look up the hiring manager in the membership directory first, and see they're a member too...)
Haha, absolutely not. I get almost nothing out of it. I sat the exam out of curiosity, but if you qualify and want to join, you have to do so immediately — you can't decide to later on. I've been a member for 3 years, and doubt I'll renew next year.
There's a private Facebook group for members, which has some lively discussion from time to time, but that's about it. To be honest I just posted my earlier comment to stir the pot a little :)
This may be a consequence of the place you live in or the language you're reading their material in. I expect there are plenty of people doing environmental things (possibly under other names) in Africa/India/China.
White people also invented "rolling coal", so we have both extremes.
If something is true, I don't really care if you're going to try to attach a negative emotional connotation to it (at least if we're discussing things at arm's length).
There seems to be some implication here that you believe joining mensa means you associate with people only for their high IQ. Just because that's the entrance criteria doesn't mean you hang out with some subset of those members soley based on their IQ.
Just as joining a sports team doesn't mean you only hang out with members of that team because they enjoy the same sport - the same holds true for people who join mensa or any other group I'd imagine.
I went to their meetings a couple times by invitation, and it never really "clicked" - for many of their members, their MENSA membership and related activities are a big part of their identity and their life, and I wasn't able to connect. I heard the same thing from a couple of friends who also met their entrance criteria, and there's certainly a lot of selection bias. Which is fine, but it's not representative by any means.