[nickjj]

I like the article overall but I'm not sold on the passion ethos section as it was written.

The author hints that they wouldn't want a surgeon who is passionate because they should be making rational decisions.

But IMO passion isn't all about making an on the spot emotional decision without thinking things through. It's about their willingness to continue learning and advancing their craft because they have the motivation and passion to do so without getting burnt out. They do it because deep down it's truly what they love doing.

So in the surgeon example, would you rather want the surgeon who clocks in and out for the day and that's it while doing the bare minimum to keep their license? Or the surgeon who puts in similar hours but also decides to speak at conferences / universities afterwards and is keeping up with everything while evolving their practice? Perhaps they do more work (surgeries), but not putting in more hours. Maybe they specialize in 1 thing and then just crank that out continuously to become an expert in their field.

If given the choice I'd go for the more passionate surgeon every time.

[nocman]

I hear what you are saying, but in fairness to the author of the article, he did say he would like people to care about their vocation.

Also, I'd rather have a surgeon who was skilled, cared about his profession, and also was not burned out from overexertion trying to be "passionate" about his job.

I think the medical field in general (not unlike the software development field in general) often undervalues people's time outside of work. It's fair to say that some fields require more investment from those that work in them, but in every field there is a point when investing even more of your time and effort is counter-productive.

[westoncb]

> from overexertion trying to be "passionate" about his job.

This phrasing captures the issue exactly, imo. The split is between someone who is "trying" to be "passionate" about their work, versus someone for whom that's just an apt description.

It seems like the discussions around "passion" tend to ignore that distinction. I think the problem could be alternately framed in terms of intrinsic/extrinsic motivation without losing much. The passionate developer is a proxy for someone intrinsically motivated by the act of constructing software, vs. extrinsic motivation, which would be something like salary.

So if someone is trying to be "passionate" about their work, that will not convert them from extrinsic motivation to intrinsic (in most cases!), so of course it's seen as empty.

The surgeon question can be restated in these terms too: prefer a surgeon who's driven by saving lives and refining their expertise in this particular mode of doing it, or a surgeon driven by salary?

(Of course this is a simplified/extremal statement of the problem, and a false dichotomy if taken literally: basically everyone is somewhere between those two poles.)

[nocman]

One issue is indeed when people are trying to project the whole "I'm realy into this whole software development thing!" vibe. Genuine excitement about something can almost always be differentiated from this, in my experience.

But the issue I'm more concerned about is this idea that you have to live, breathe, drink, eat, sleep software development 24 hours a day, or you are a lesser developer than someone else who does. There are obviously different levels of investment people are willing and/or capable to commit to a job in this field, and yes some people are better at it than others. However, I think many in our profession are being pushed to invest too much of their lives into career-centric tasks, and as a result will end up being less effective as developers than they could be. I think this is perhaps even more dangerous than being lazy, and not keeping your skills relatively current.

Having a good balance in life is the way to avoid burnout. It is way too easy to leave your family and/or friends in the wake. There are infinitely more things to learn, and you can't do it all. These are choices I personally struggle with, as I'm sure many others here do.

It doesn't help that almost all of the job listings are asking for people "passionate about X" (where X can be almost anything related to development), or looking for "a Rockstar Y developer", or some other such buzzword-laden description. It seems to me, that there is a way to describe people who want to do high quality work, who care about their results, but at the same time have a life outside of work. However, although I see some job listings where the writers appear to be trying, a lot of them leave me thinking "no need to apply there, I just want a job doing a lot of things that I am good at and enjoy most of the time. I don't want to join a cult."

[nightski]

Meh, the surgeon obsessed with self promotion and status seeking might not be the best one as they may be more focused on themselves than the task at hand.

[nickjj]

> Meh, the surgeon obsessed with self promotion and status seeking might not be the best one as they may be more focused on themselves than the task at hand.

The ones I've talked with are more interested in the implementation details, changing lives for the better and sharing what they've learned so everyone as a whole can rise.

Their practices are also wildly successful without content promotion and no to very little social media presence. These are the folks doing 750+ surgeries a year while being surrounded by relevant cases all the time. Basically total immersion in their field and then openly sharing everything with their colleagues.

[varispeed]

It does not mean everyone is like that. I was in care of one of world renown specialists in their field and I was just a case to them. They were more interested in documenting what I am going through in their journals than finding out how to help. At least this is how I felt about it. It may look great for an outsider, as they write papers, speak at conferences, show their findings, but somehow the human element is lost in all that.

[varispeed]

I know people who are exceptional developers and they don't do it as a hobby, because they have other hobbies more important to them. They have tasks at work that are fulfilling enough and carrying it home or making it more than it is would probably burn them out. It's not like if you are a surgeon, then it is the only thing in your life.

[Igelau]

> the surgeon who puts in similar hours but also decides to speak at conferences / universities afterwards and is keeping up with everything while evolving their practice

In the medical field, it's common to get CME (continuing medical education) time and dollars allocated specifically for this purpose.