[Tomte]

I wouldn't say they are full of hate. Slavery has defined the country and has repercussions still.

But I'm really worried about how we import everything American to Germany without thinking twice.

Left newspapers have started to write BIPoC everywhere when it comes to domestic issues. What exactly are the indigenous people of Germany? Even blacks are relatively rare. It would make much more sense to coin an acronym that includes Jews, Sinti and Roma, given our sordid history. But we simply take what American culture has thought up.

[myspy]

We have problems to integrate Turkish or Russian immigrants and their children as Germans, not as people from elsewhere. As well as the refugees from Syria.

[fho]

Having lived in a mostly Turkish neighborhood for five years (as a German, Turkish landlord, Turkish "housemates" (?)) I think some just don't want to be integrated...

Landlord was pretty chill and I kind of miss being able to just ask anything and he would try to make it happen (including things like repairing car motors).

Housemates were of the mildly radicalized religious kind, with daughters that did not attend the normal school system and are now being married of early.

I don't know if the German "integration system" has failed for the later ... they have the freedom to chose and they chose a path that is different from what is considered "normal" in the "West".

[ficklepickle]

I think "integration" is a sham. Integration implies a give and take, a compromise. It seems actually assimilation or submission is what many Euro countries want.

As a Canadian (Vancouver), I can tell you true integration happens over generations of people working together and respecting each other. In those conditions, it is unavoidable.

If either group lacks respect, the outcome is always conflict.

You put their kids into school together young and they won't know not to be friends until you tell them. That was my experience, anyway.

[bad_good_guy]

And yet you've ignored the person you're responding to in their claim that turkish immigrants don't send their children to the same schools.

I'm all for give and take but I wouldn't want the "give" to result in backwards steps for woman's rights being imported from the countries of origin

[nix23]

>It seems actually assimilation or submission is what many Euro countries want.

No we think that forced marriage has no place in Europe, or the oppression of woman's. And yes, that's our culture..so is the freedom to choose your religion and to have free speech. If someone from another culture comes we are happy to integrate it into ours, but NOT when it clashes with our Laws.

>You put their kids into school together young and they won't know not to be friends until you tell them.

And what when they go into different schools (Jewish or Muslim etc), live in different parts of the City (look at Paris or Berlin), and never met someone outside of their bubble until 20 or later?

BTW:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia_in_Canada

[fho]

> but NOT when it clashes with our Laws

I said it in another post ... it's not about being forced into something, it's about freedom of choice. And that is something universal, it's just codified in our laws.

It's completely fine if a women decides to become married and have children early ... it's probably not a good choice ... but morally there is no way to reject that.

The problem arises when people never learn that they have a choice ... I have (female) friends from rural Germany that think it's perfectly reasonable to go study and once finished move in with their husband and be the perfect stay-at-home mom.

edit: heck ... I even have friends from larger cities who would just prefer to be stay-at-home moms because that gives an excuse to sloth on the couch for half of the day :-)

[nix23]

Totally with you.

>The problem arises when people never learn that they have a choice

Exactly, that's the problem with the bubbles like (Ghettos/Banlieues), and "special" schools.

[clusterfish]

The point is, "BIPoC" means specifically "Black, Indigenous, People of Color". It does not mean "immigrants" or "refugees" or "all marginalized groups" or whoever else needs social justice in Germany.

Borrowing that specific term for other purposes is stupid.

[jokethrowaway]

As an immigrant, I didn't want to leave my country, let alone integrate where I did.

I was forced to because the government in my country steals and wastes so much money that the economy breaks and you can't make money there. Still the quality of life is much better at home and I'd rather stay there.

All my friends are immigrants, I couldn care less to integrate here. Ideally I'd just rather live in a town with just immigrants from my country. As long as you keep them out of politics they'll probably won't rob you.

[jdmoreira]

Interesting. I also left my country but mostly because there wasn’t really anything left for me there and I met my girlfriend and she was from somewhere else... So I moved to her country.

Her country is clearly superior in almost everything except for weather and food. I like living here and I've made good friends and enjoy my life here.

Now the curious part comes... I have zero attachment to both countries, their culture and their national identities. I couldn’t care less about their language or customs. I just see myself has some kind of post-nationalistic person that would much rather speak English with everyone, hang out on the internet and live wherever.

As far as I'm concerned national identities and culture are useless and holding us down as a species. I really wish people could outgrow this nonsense.

[cycomanic]

I partly feel the same. I agree with you that identification with a country (patriotism/nationalism) is holding us back. However I do recognize that my upbringing has shaped me culturally and similar in my behaviour. Similarly the 3 other countries I have lived in for significant time, which have also formed my personality. I also do feel attachment to those places, but this is much more due do people and the location, not the nation.

[jdmoreira]

I agree with you that the culture I was raised in has had a huge effect on me. You can take the man of the country but you can’t take the country out of the man.

In hindsight I don’t think I was raised in a particularly enlightened culture. Do those even exist? I would much rather have us move past dumb social biases and constructs and work together to build a better future and a more universal and cooperative world.

[throwaway210222]

"I would much rather have us move past dumb social biases "

On person's unbiased Baysian predictions based on a lifetime of experience and evidence, looks a lot like biases and prejudice to the delicate of mind.

And they get nasty about it.

So no, there will be no building of a better world.

[nlitened]

> Ideally I'd just rather live in a town with just immigrants from my country.

That town was in your country which you fled though.

[stuaxo]

Having met some white people in Asia, it's not like immigrant (ex-pat) community all make that much effort to integrate.

[lokedhs]

Just like any other immigrants, westeners in Asia integrate do different degrees. Some only hang out with people from their own country and refuse to go to anything but restaurants that serve their own food. While others practically become locals.

Some nationalities integrate more than others. This goes for different European countries even, so it has very little to do with "race".

[ficklepickle]

I understand and I think that is acceptable. I'd welcome you and yours in Canada. When both groups respect each other, true integration comes over generations of working together.

Obviously we did not respect the Indigenous people and I hope that can me mended through generations of mutual respect.

I think Vancouver is better because of the rich mix of cultures. It's not perfect here but I think it is pretty good. I have seen a Muslim man give his shoes to a homeless man on the bus and walk home barefoot in the rain. I believe anything is possible.

[enriquto]

> What exactly are the indigenous people of Germany?

Ha! I remember a drunken night with a north-american colleague; he asked why didn't we have indigenous people here in Europe. Then he suddenly realized the answer: oh, but it is you, you all are!

[gsich]

I haven't heared anyone using those terms in spoken conversations.

[goatinaboat]

Slavery has defined the country

I don't think this is true. What percentage of White Americans, during the period of slavery, owned any slaves? Was it even 1%?

It is one facet of American history yes, but it is very far from the "definition" of the country.