[ipatec]

I don't believe Japan is a good example. Having worked for a Japanese company for about 4.5 years I was really wondering how they handle the WFH. Japanese companies are very hierarchical and permanent reviews and monitoring are required in order to reach a decision. I can see WFH not being as efficient as office presence.

[tpmx]

Yeah, I think many are aware that Japan has a pretty special work culture, especially when it comes to the importance of butts-in-seats.

[bluepizza]

Every time any subject contains "Japan", it always devolves into cultural explanations. There are plenty cultures around the planet that are hierarchical, consensus based, or both.

It's baffling to me that Japan is always singled out in these situations. If the same news was about any of our neighbours (South Korea, China, Taiwan) the amount of cultural explanations would be much smaller, and the discussion would be much more focused on the fundamental principles of the problem.

I understand that we are guilty of furthering this sort of discussion, but it is really frustrating to me.

[uranusjr]

I live in Taiwan. News from Japan usually needs accompanying cultural explanations even here. People from Taiwan, China, and South Korea have difficulties understanding the situation even we’re lifelong neighbours. Yes, Japan is that freaking unique.

[tasogare]

Any link to an article that would illustrate that? I’ve been in Taiwan a bunch of times, live in Japan and on the contrary Japan, while having a good image there, is not a single-outed as it is in the West. The cultural gap between Taiwan and Japan is infinitely smaller than between Japan and more remote places. Taiwan was even part of Japan at some point, so while only the most elderly lived it, I really doubt cultural explanations are needed as you claim they are.

[bluepizza]

Uniqueness does not really relate to my point.

If coronavirus is contained in South Korea, it is due to smart government, if it is contained in New Zealand, it is due to good policies... but if we are discussing Japan, suddenly we are talking about a "collectivist society" with face masks explanations extrapolating to some daimyo actions 400 years ago.

This makes it quite hard to reach the central points of anything that happens here - there's always a random cultural sidetracking. Maybe when a government official is caught lying and apologizes, he is just trying to save himself, and a shame oriented collectivist society is not the central point - a lying politician is.

[omniscient_oce]

Sometimes it gets thrown out of proportion but I speak Japanese and talk with guys and gals there who are currently freelance with previous experience in a company. Japan work situation is just that weird. I wouldn't be surprised if most people who WFH would end up having their PC being monitored. The ironic thing is a lot of people just look busy without doing that much work because they have to stay until the boss leaves meaning they're there for hours. Of my main friends 100% of them have had experience regularly having to stay to 8pm

[gfxgirl]

A friend of mine said her PC is monitored. If she doesn't touch the keyboard within 5 minutes the screen changes color and she's (apparently) reported as not working. She claims she currently doesn't have any actual work to do so she reads a book and presses some keys every few minutes.

[bluepizza]

Yeah, that happens in a lot of places. Stefanini develops PC monitoring software - I interned for them while doing university in the USA. But they don't have a presence in Japan.

[pdimitar]

Including an important factor is not "devolving" into anything, it's being context-aware.

[manmal]

Off-topic, maybe you have an answer to this: How do the Japanese work so much? I read that they have naps in the office, but still - I think I would burn out super quick.

[brigandish]

It's not productive "work", it's desk warming because it's just as important (if not more) to show you're working than do work. Japan is horribly unproductive[1]:

> Japan ranks twenty-first for labor productivity among the 36 nations of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, according to the Japan Productivity Center’s International Comparison of Labor Productivity report. Based on OECD data, the report found that Japan’s per-hour labor productivity in 2018 was $46.8 (equivalent in purchasing power to ¥4,744); this is less than half the $102.3 level in Ireland and roughly 60% the $74.7 level in the United States. The government has raised “work-style reform” as a key task and aimed to lift productivity, but Japan has continued to be dead last among Group of Seven nations since 1970, when survey records were first available.

Once I realised that the culture is based on far more on appearance than truth, so many things made sense that hadn't before.

[1] https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h00619/japan%E2%80%99s-...

[pdimitar]

I am not saying the following out of malice or bias because I have no vested interest in having any... but my observation on a lot of Asians has been that they'll work extremely hard to project a good image but not do actual good work.

I don't blame the workers of course, I blame the leadership. Japan in particular seems just like the countries of the former Soviet Bloc (like mine -- Bulgaria) where good media propaganda is prioritized much more than actually working on the country's economy.

[missedthecue]

I wonder how that is measured. Irish employees don't make unusually good salaries, and their employers don't have unusually high profit margins

[brigandish]

I also wonder. As an aside/anecdote of perhaps dubious quality, I had a mate that worked in the Office of National Statistics in the UK. He said that they'd often come up with figures for things that didn't match expectations, so they'd fudge them in case it caused a fuss.

Still, again anecdotally, I can't say that I find Japan a place of particularly efficient work. Long working hours, certainly, but efficiency… not in my experience.

[BlargMcLarg]

Blind guess: they actually are permanently in a state of pseudo burn-out and combat it through various means, a less individualistic mentality and gradually drop their ambition to prevent it from increasing. Also, just in general going at a really slow pace to stay sane.

[GuB-42]

> How do the Japanese work so much?

Simple answer, they don't.

They spend a lot of time at work looking busy, but they don't actually do that much actual work. For me (a lazy Frenchman), Americans are the hardest working people I know in terms of actual productive work.

[tpmx]

No direct experience with working in Japan, but in Taiwan people rested their heads on a pillow on the work desk to nap for an hour after lunch. So essentially shifting some of the sleep time at home towards sleep time at work.

Never quite understood the thinking behind that. My hunch is that I'm not understanding "face" properly.

[manmal]

That’s what I was referring to, yes. I heard of a situation during a merger where the Japanese delegation took turns sleeping, while the other delegation was up all day. As a consequence, the Japanese delegation got their way because they had more stamina.

[brigandish]

Sleeping at work is sometimes allowed because it's accepted there is such a chronic lack of sleep generally. If they were taking turns sleeping it means they probably already were overworked and needed a nap. The story sounds like "history is written by the victors" or just more fetishing of Japan.

[tasogare]

No this is different. Lot of Taiwanese companies have the after-lunch rest (source: Taiwanese friends). I never heard as such for Japanese companies.

[SyzygistSix]

I've had many years where a short nap after lunch dramatically increases my productivity.

[walshemj]

And I suspect the tiny nature of most Japanese homes where its very unlikely you will have a spare separate room.