[NestedLoopGoBrr]

The issue with categorizing gender dysphoria as a mental illness is no different than categorizing homosexuality as a mental illness. The gender dysphoria is a problem derived from what is effectively a birth defect. If someone had a malformed limb and because this has clear impediments in their life in social and physical terms, they experience depression with their physical condition. We don’t say “oh, your body dysmorphia is a mental illness, you just need therapy”, as not only is that a shit take, but now prosthetics are more viable and advanced.

[Blikkentrekker]

> The issue with categorizing gender dysphoria as a mental illness is no different than categorizing homosexuality as a mental illness.

There is a very big difference: a homosexual person is not depressed and inhibited in functioning per sē, and this is why gender identity incongruence absent any gender dysphoria is not classified as an illness.

It is also why depression caused by homosexuality is classified as a mental illness, it simply has no special name in this respect.

> The gender dysphoria is a problem derived from what is effectively a birth defect. If someone had a malformed limb and because this has clear impediments in their life in social and physical terms, they experience depression with their physical condition. We don’t say “oh, your body dysmorphia is a mental illness, you just need therapy”, as not only is that a shit take, but now prosthetics are more viable and advanced.

What does that have to do with anything?

The recommended medical treatment for gender dysphoria is not based on mental therapies, but physical surgeries and hormonal therapies, so I'm not quite sure what you are attempting to imply here.

The simple empirical finding finding has been that genital confirmation surgeries and hormonal therapies have been far more effective at reducing the symptoms of gender dysphoria than any mental talk therapy has ever had, just as with many of depression that are caused by chemical abnormalities in the brain, drugs that remove that abnormality have been found far more effective than talk therapy.

Talk therapy is not a very common remedy that psychiatrists resort to. — it works only for a very select few conditions.

[NestedLoopGoBrr]

> The recommended medical treatment for gender dysphoria is not based on mental therapies, but physical surgeries and hormonal therapies, so I'm not quite sure what you are attempting to imply here.

You would in fact be wrong, as therapy is absolutely a part of the comprehensive standard of care recommended by WPATH, and is required by practically every surgeon willing to perform any transgender related surgery.

> There is a very big difference: a homosexual person is not depressed and inhibited in functioning per sē, and this is why gender identity incongruence absent any gender dysphoria is not classified as an illness.

You’re quite close to recognizing the crucial distinction: gender dysphoria is a grouping of symptoms related to a gender incongruence, and thus itself is realistically just a poor evaluation of the condition of transgender individuals’ reality — of course they experience dysphoria, gender incongruence can do that. So we treat the problem, not a symptom. We realized that homosexuality wasn’t a mental illness because their suffering was a byproduct of society’s view of their innate sexuality, and reasonably removed the diagnosis. Likewise this will happen (and is happening) with gender dysphoria.

[Blikkentrekker]

> You would in fact be wrong, as therapy is absolutely a part of the comprehensive standard of care recommended by WPATH, and is required by practically every surgeon willing to perform any transgender related surgery.

Only in regards for informing and making ready for the effects of surgery, not talk therapy to alleviate symptoms.

> You’re quite close to recognizing the crucial distinction: gender dysphoria is a grouping of symptoms related to a gender incongruence, and thus itself is realistically just a poor evaluation of the condition of transgender individuals’ reality — of course they experience dysphoria, gender incongruence can do that.

Actually a very large number of gender identity incongruents does not experience gender dysphoria.

It is obviously hard to find any certain numbers on this, since those that do not tend to remain more silent, but a big research on the matter in the Netherlands by Kuyper in 2006[1] concluded that as little as 30% of those with gender incongurence experienced gender dysphoria.

> So we treat the problem, not a symptom. We realized that homosexuality wasn’t a mental illness because their suffering was a byproduct of society’s view of their innate sexuality, and reasonably removed the diagnosis. Likewise this will happen (and is happening) with gender dysphoria.

That is quite a strange line of thought.

Gender dysphoria is not caused by social stigma, but by a physical mismatch of the body and would exist regardless of social stigma so long as the body not be made to conform to the mind's mental image.

[1]: table at page 4: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...

[leadingthenet]

> We don’t say “oh, your body dysmorphia is a mental illness, you just need therapy”

In some cases, we do. It’s called Body integrity dysphoria, and although it is a slightly different situation than the one you presented, there are people who really, really wish to have limbs and other body parts amputated.

Guess what, most experts do not recommend going forward with it, despite it generally improving their mental condition.

[Blikkentrekker]

Which has certainly been put forward in many cases as an example of double standards that are pervasive in medicine, and of how much cultural norms influence recommended choice of treatment.

Other such double standards are the severe hurdles one must go through to obtain puberty blockers, for their theoretical, possible adverse effects and the supposed idea that a child cannot give informed consent, ignoring that letting one's puberty progress naturally is also something one consents to, yet, children are given a variety of medicaments whose destructive, structural side effects are far less theoretical and far more severe every day to alleviate mental conditions that are fare less severe, and have a far lower risk of suicide than gender dysphoria.

The readiness by which specialists are willing to resort to various surgeries and treatments seems to have a very big cultural moral component to it, and is not purely determined by what is best for the patient by an objective measure.

[leadingthenet]

But that is exactly my point. All over this thread you have people suggesting that this is a completely solved issue, the science is settled, and the experts agree. Therefore, shut up and think as you’re told.

Whether or not the claims are true is irrelevant. The fact that we’re now in a position where voicing the tiniest bit of dissent over this issue is enough to relegate you to the “clueless bigot” bin, or maybe even qualify as “hate speech”, is where the real problem lies. Imagine if we did that back when lobotomy was settled science and had expert consensus.

Nothing, no single human idea, is above criticism and pushback.

[Blikkentrekker]

> But that is exactly my point. All over this thread you have people suggesting that this is a completely solved issue, the science is settled, and the experts agree. Therefore, shut up and think as you’re told.

Ah yes, I see what you mean, I am definitely not one to agree with that.

For one to say that a science as vague and muddy as psychiatry can be so “solved” is quite an audacious statement, — much of it is indeed semantics, classification, and social perception changing over time and how much the psychiatrist likes the patient on a personal level will no doubt play a significant influence in how much he will recommend that the latter transition or not.

> Whether or not the claims are true is irrelevant. The fact that we’re now in a position where voicing the tiniest bit of dissent over this issue is enough to relegate you to the “clueless bigot” bin, or maybe even qualify as “hate speech”, is where the real problem lies. Imagine if we did that back when lobotomy was settled science and had expert consensus.

I have not seen any such responses in this particular train of discussion, however.

Amazon would perhaps be so inclined, yes.

> Nothing, no single human idea, is above criticism and pushback.

I find that formally verified mathematical proofs are rather hard to disprove in practice.

If a man claim he has found an error in one of them, I would dismiss it out of hand, unless it come with a show of a bug in the proof assistant or hardware.

[leadingthenet]

I think the two of us are essentially in agreement, then. I’ll just add a few thoughts.

> I have not seen any such responses in this particular train of discussion, however.

Thankfully, neither have I, but it’s a particularly sensitive issue for me as just today I found out that one of these “hate speech” laws was passed in the country I currently reside in, Scotland. I find this, and other recent attempts at authoritarianism, deeply troubling.

> formal proofs

In a way I agree, but in another, even mathematics isn’t on as sound footing as one might first imagine. For instance, we know of Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem (which says that NO system of mathematics can be both consistent and complete), and then there is the fact that none of us can agree on what mathematics even is, from a philosophical point of view.

Truly, I’m often astonished at both how much, and how little, we actually truly know as a species.

[daptaq]

> The issue with categorizing gender dysphoria as a mental illness is no different than categorizing homosexuality as a mental illness.

What is the issue with that? From what I see, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone, so even if were scientifically an "illness", it's not worse than infertility. It is a private matter. Gender on the other hand is social. If gender dysphoria requires invasive medical treatments, constant hormonal therapy and extreme effort to not trigger bad reactions, then it seems like a real disability. So why not treat that then, and hope that people can accept themselves the way they are?

This seems like an absolutely reasonable and understanding position to me, but a lot of people are aggressively opposed to it. I guess that's what trans people feel like, when everyone thinks you are crazy for something that seems perfectly logical to oneself.