[Diederich]

Ah neat, so you were an NCR tech! (I peeked at your comment history a bit.) My team and broader department spent a lot of hours working with, sometimes not in the most friendly terms, people at different levels in the NCR organization.

You're correct, if Drake (the always running discovery engine) didn't detect a device on a given port over a long enough time, then another program would shut that port down. This was nominally done for PCI compliance, but of course having open, un-used ports especially in the field is just a terrible security hole in general.

In order to support legit equipment moves, we created a number of tools that the NOC and I believe Field Support could use to re-open ports as needed. I think we eventually made something that authorized in-store people could use too.

As an aside, a port being operationally 'up' wasn't by itself sufficient for us mark the port as being legitimately used. We had to see traffic coming from it as well.

You mentioned elsewhere that you're working with a big, legacy Perl application, porting it to Python. 99% of the software my team at WalMart built was in Perl. (: I'd be curious to know, if you can share, what company/product you were working on.

[hobojones]

The NCR/Walmart relationship was fairly strained during my tenure. Given the sheer number of stores/sites that Walmart had and NCR's own problems, it was not always possible to provide the quality of service people might expect, especially with a smile. From a FE perspective, working on networking gear at Walmart meant that you were out at 11pm at night (typically after working 10-11 hours already and spending an hour or two onsite waiting for the part to arrive via courier) and your primary concern was to get the job done and get back home. The worst was to plug a switch in, watch it not power up, and realize you'd need to be back in the same spot at three or four hours later to try again.

Walmart must have been an interesting place to work during the late 90s, early 2000s - I imagine that most everywhere they had to solve problems at scale before scale was a considered a thing. I'd be very interested to see how the solutions created in that period match to best-practices today, especially since outside of the telecom or perhaps defense worlds there probably wasn't much prior art.

As for the Perl application, I probably shouldn't say since I'm still employed at the same company and I know coworkers who read HN. If you're interested, DM me and I can at least provide the company name and some basic details.

[Diederich]

> The NCR/Walmart relationship was fairly strained ...

Definitely. (: I didn't hold it against the hands on workers like yourself. Even (and perhaps especially) back then, WalMart was a challenging, difficult and aggressive partner.

> working on networking gear at Walmart meant that you were out at 11pm at night

That sounds about right; the scheduling I was directly aware of was very fast paced. Our Network Engineering Store Team pushed and pushed and pushed, just as they were pushed and pushed and pushed.

> Walmart must have been an interesting place to work during the late 90s, early 2000

Yup. Nowhere I've worked before or since had me learning as much or getting nearly as much done. It was an amazingly positive experience for me and my team, but not so positive for a lot of others.

> I imagine that most everywhere they had to solve problems at scale before scale was a considered a thing.

Sometimes I imagine writing a book about this, because it's absolutely true, all over Information Systems Division.

For a time in the early 2000s, we were, on average, opening up a new store every day, and a typical new store would have two routers, two VOIP routers, two cache engines, between 10 and 20 switches, two or four wireless access point controllers and dozens of AP endpoints. That was managed by one or two people on the Network Engineering side, so my team (Network Management) wrote automation that generated the configs, validated connections, uploaded configs, etc etc etc. (Not one or two people per store: one or two people for ALL of the new stores.)

The networking equipment was managed by a level of automation that is pretty close to what one sees inside of Google or Facebook today, and we were doing it 20 years ago.

> ... telecom ... prior art ...

John Chambers, the long-time CEO of Cisco, was at the time on WalMart's board of directors. He was always a bit of a tech head, and so when he came to Bentonville for board meetings, he'd often come and visit us in Network Engineering.

Around 2001-2002, we were chatting with him and he asked why we weren't using Cisco Works to manage our network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_Prime but back then it was mostly focused on network monitoring and to a lesser extent, config management. We chuckled and told him that there's no way that Cisco Works could scale to even a fraction of our network. He asked what we used, and of course we showed him the management system we'd written.

He was so impressed that he went back to San Jose, selected a group of Cisco Works architects, had them sign NDAs, and sent them to Bentonville, Arkansas for a month. The intent was to have them evaluate our software with an eye toward packaging it up and re-selling it.

Those meetings were interesting, but ultimately fruitless. The Cisco Works architects were Ivory Tower Java People. The first thing they wanted to see was our class hierarchy. We laughed and said we had scores of separate and very shallow classes, all written in Perl, C and C++.

Needless to say, they found the very 'rough and ready' way our platform was designed to be shocking and unpalatable. They went back and told Chambers that there was literally no way our products could be tied together.

> ... match to best-practices today ...

Professionally, I've been doing basically the same kinds of things since then, and I'll say that while our particular methods and approaches were extremely unusual, the high level results would meet or perhaps exceed what one gets with 'best practices' seen today.

Not because we were any smarter or better, but because we had no choice but to automate and automate effectively. At that scale, at that rate of change, at those uptime requirements, 'only' automating 99% would be disastrous.

[exikyut]

> Sometimes I imagine writing a book about this

FWIW, my brain was going "book! book! book! book! book!" back at the top-level comment, and the beeper may have got slightly overloaded and broke as I continued reading. :)

Yes please.

As a sidenote, the story about "the CEO vs the architects" was very fascinating: the CEO could see the end-to-end real-world value of what you'd built, but the architects couldn't make everything align. In a sense the CEO was more flexible than the architects, despite the fact that stereotypes might suggest the opposite being more presumable.

Also, the sentiment about your unusual methodology exceeding current best practice makes me wonder whether you achieved so-called "environmental enlightenment" - where everything clicks and just works and makes everyone who touches the system a 5x developer - or whether the environment simply had to just work really really well. Chances are the former is what everyone wishes they'll find one day, while the latter (incredibly complex upstream demands that are not going to go away anytime soon and which require you to simply _deliver_) definitely seems like the likelier explanation for why the system worked, regardless of the language it was written in - it was the product of a set of requirements that would not accept anything else.

Hmm. Now I think about that a bit and try and apply it to "but why is current best practice worse", I was musing the other day about how a lot of non-technical environments don't apply tech in smart ways to increase their efficiency, because their fundamental lack of understanding in technology means they go to a solutions provider, get told "this will cost $x,xxx,xxx", don't haggle because they basically _can't_, and of course don't implement the tech. I wonder if the ubiquitification (that seems to be a word) of so-called "best practices" in an area doesn't function in a similar way, where lack of general awareness/understanding/visibility in an area means methodology and "practices" (best or not) aren't bikeshed to death, and you can just innovate. (Hmm, but then I start wondering about how highly technically competent groups get overtaken by others... I think I'll stop now...)