[book-sandworm]

This is such a painful situation for Japan. When I visited a couple a years ago the preparations were still going full force. They were so proud and looking forward to hosting it. Really think they are between a rock and a hard place with any decision.

This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship make it seem like organising events like this not something I would feel comfortable with hosting in my own country. It seems like it's a combination of hot potato and ego projects for specific people in governments.

hell, couple of years ago my country "won" the rights to host eurovision song festival. I'm not against investing money in a broad set of cultural activities. But looking at the amount of money it costed to host it felt not something that was worth the tax payers money. Rather we just payed the artists then all the pseudo glamour surrounding it.

[sandworm101]

>> make it seem like organising events like this not something I would feel comfortable with hosting in my own country.

Vancouver Olympics 2010. No, it did not make a profit, and there was a fiasco involving how the athletes village was converted into condos, but the city did not go crazy over preparations. Most of the venues were already there. Whistler was already a winter sports mecca. Vancouver didn't need to build new airports or erect new mountains. Things like highway improvements and sports facilities were not left to rot after the event. They are all still there being used today. And it was canada. Canada knows how to do winter stuff. I think it was the first olymics where the ice doctors didn't hide the fact that every winter olymics has a Canadian coin buried under center ice.

The olympics isn't something that a city does to turn a profit, but that doesn't mean it has to bankrupt itself either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Winter_Olympics

[dleslie]

We badly needed the highway and transit improvements, too. Almost none of the new construction went to waste.

There is/was a movement to make the winter olympics permanently fixed in a few northern cities, Vancouver being one of them, in order to prevent the wasteful fiascos that are witnessed from time to time.

Obviously that was a non-starter. The enormous expenditure (and wealth transfer) of public funds is sort of the point. ;)

[sandworm101]

>> We badly needed the highway and transit improvements, too

There is much debate about this, particularly in regards to the Sea to Sky highway improvements. The old highway wasn't great, it was rough in spots, but the improvements have had unwanted effects. Making the highway easier means more people are doing day trip to whistler from Vancouver. Rather than stay in whistler people are staying at cheaper hotels in Vancouver. That means less local revenue and increased highway traffic. And no effort was made to improve non-car traffic along the route. No rail improvements. No bus lanes. Nothing much other than making the existing 2/4-lane road straighter and faster.

[dleslie]

I, for one, am glad that Whistler is more accessible to those who could not afford the high prices of Whistler hotels.

For most of my life skiing at Whistler was totally out of reach. The one or two of my peers who went yearly were among the wealthiest.

Glad it's no longer an exclusive playground for Vancouver's wealthy.

[vl]

Skiing by itself is very expensive (equipment and lift tickets). For Whistler there are cheaper options if you are staying not in the main village, basically price-wise it’s comparable to staying somewhere else and driving (and hotels in Vancouver are not that cheap in the first place).

[sandworm101]

It has become out of reach. In the 90s a seasons pass was expensive but reasonable. I had a "dual mountain" pass from back when it was two different mountains, back when harmony bowl was considered backcountry/out-of-bounds skiing. We were not wealthy and the mountain was a mix of different people. Now it is all uber-wealthy clients. The mountains seem to have more staff than customers. People who just want to ski on their own are being pushes aside for "mountain experience" clients who want guides and expensive food services. We used to bring a bagged lunch, sometimes eating out on the slopes in one of the secret spots. Good lunch doing that these days. There are no secret spots anymore.

[dleslie]

The bag lunch, secret smoke spot crowds are all at cypress. ;)

[vl]

I’m sure Whistler overall saw increase in business. And improvements to the road were long overdue. This “highway” was in disrepair with constant traffic jams.

[dleslie]

And deaths.

[gamblor956]

Every LA Olympics so far has been profitable.

This is because LA generally reuses existing venues when possible, and almost all facilities built for the Olympics are designed with plans for post-Olympic usage.

For example, the LA Memorial Coliseum was built in 1921 as WWI memorial and was expanded for the 1932 Olympics a decade later. The Coliseum was not upgraded for the 1984 Olympics (though the track and field were upgraded), and the only two venue custom-built for the 1984 Olympics were the velodrome and swimming stadium.

The 1984 Olympics was one of the most cost-conscious Olympics ever held, and is still the most profitable Olympics. Like today, few cities wanted to host the Olympics due to cost concerns. Indeed, LA was the only remaining bidder by the time the decision reached the IOC (similarly, for the 2024 Olympics, Paris and LA were the only two bidders remaining, and LA was the only city willing to bid for 2028). The 1984 Olympics were almost entirely privately funded (thanks to Hollywood and other corporate backers). LA made significant use of existing structures, low-cost decorations, and was the first Olympics to truly take advantage of corporate sponsorships and television contracts. For example, the velodrome was funded by 7-11, and the swimming stadium was funded by McDonalds.

The forthcoming 2028 Olympics follows the blueprint set by the 1984 Olympics: reusing existing venues and infrastructure, to the extent that the only venues that will be created solely for the Olympics are the viewer stands for some of the outdoor events like bmx and canoeing. Extensive use of corporate and private sponsorship. Pretty much the only thing that requires government funding is the security, and the US federal government will be providing the bulk of that.

[coliveira]

The Winter Olympics is a different beast because, as you say, mountains are already there. But for a summer olympics you have to build a lot of facilities that will never be used again.

[zpeti]

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not?

For example I think the olympics put Barcelona on the map for a lot of tourists and they’ve been reaping the rewards since, but it seems to me that’s more of an exception than the rule.

[dagw]

Are their any actual legit studies that have shown if hosting an olympics is worth it for the overall economy or not?

Lots, probably hundreds. Most of them conclude 'it depends, but basically not worth it'. But the gist is that if you are already a functioning city and popular tourist spot (like London) you'll get close to zero benefit (at massive costs). London actually significantly had less total tourists the year of the Olympics compared with the preceding and following years.

Some cities, like Barcelona, Seoul and possibly Rio de Janeiro saw some benefit in terms of raising awareness of the city as tourist destination and better infrastructure for handling tourism. Both led to increased tourism the years following the Olympics. Barcelona and Seoul where also however cheaper events than current Olympics so it is hard to compare.

Also only the Summer Olympics has shown any sign of positive benefits on tourism. Winter Olympics has basically no effect.

[HenryBemis]

The upside is that you modernise your city.

In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists, which they won't come. If you travel to Japan (e.g. from Europe) you don't just go for the events. You also say an extra 5-10 days. That is a big loss for the tourist industry, the millions of mouths eating in restaurants, drinking in bars, and on top of the costs/profits, imagien that the state takes a 5-10-20% on taxes, which would be reinvested to the country (education, infrastructure, health, etc.)

It is a worse case sceario for the country. All these expenses and not near enought he revenue..

[dagw]

The upside is that you modernise your city.

In some cases that is true. But I've been to Tokyo twice as a tourist and didn't see much in desperate need of modernization.

And even if your city is in need of modernization, hosting an Olympics is a very inefficient way to go about it. The only argument that can be made is a political one where it is easier to convince the government to spend $10 billion on hosting the Olympics (and spending some of that on infrastructure renovation) rather than just spending $2 billion on infrastructure renovation. In fact the Mayor of London even said: “I bid for the Olympics because it’s the only way to get the billions of pounds out of the government to develop the East End – to clean the soil, put in the infrastructure and build the housing.”

However as many cities have found, the modernization done to host an Olympics aren't necessarily the modernizations a city needs the most long term,

In this case, they would have receive X thousand/million of tourists

Would they be getting more that they would otherwise though? As I mentioned elsewhere, London saw a clear drop in tourists visiting over the Olympic summer (with a matching decrease in restaurant and shop revenue), since it turns out many people who want to visit London would rather do so when there isn't a major sporting event causing massive chaos.

I mean yes. Spending all that money preparing for an Olympics and having no one show up is probably worse than having people show up. But not hosting the Olympics in the first place would obviously be the most financially prudent move

[iso1631]

London normally[0] gets twice the number of international tourists as Tokyo, it's only $100 return flight from Europe and easily available for a weekend, and even flights from the US aren't extortionate, and are very frequent.

Tokyo is in the order of Seoul, Miami, Barcalona rather than London, Paris, Dubai, New York.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_internationa...

[fomine3]

Yes, not so much.

* Adoption of Credit card and NFC payment on real shop is growing.

* Smoking in restaurant/bar/road is well restricted

* Haneda airport add a runway, by plane flying over Tokyo

* Airbnb is allowed in some situation because of lack of hotels for audiences

* R-18 Porn books are removed from convenience store (IMO it's bad for people who not affordable to internet, it should be zoned but not banned)

* It is rumored that police forces print industry/digital content shop to strictly hide/put mosaic on that on porn content, due to the Olympic. (Why it matters??)

[newsclues]

So we should pick cities in developing countries in need of modernization and have the global community fund it?

Instead of incremental improvements to wealthy nations, the Olympics is the opportunity to build up the developing world a as and highlight it for the world to see.

If only the IOC was not the peak of corruption

[dagw]

Honestly, it's not the dumbest idea. Shame it will never happen.

[Aromasin]

This was a massive benefit that came from the UK Olympics. Almost every facility that was used throughout the games continues to be used to this day.

"When the Park opens fully in spring 2014, it will provide a world-class hub for performance and community sport, offering a range of 25 indoor and outdoor activities every day, all year round. The iconic Aquatics Centre will offer two 50-metre pools and a diving pool, as well as seating for 2,500 spectators, while the Velodrome will be reopened as the Lee Valley VeloPark, providing state-of-the art cycling facilities. The Eton Manor hockey and tennis facilities, meanwhile, will operate as Lee Valley Hockey and Tennis Centre, offering two outdoor hockey pitches, six outdoor and four indoor tennis courts. In 2015, the venue will stage the European Hockey Championships – the first international sporting competition secured for the Park after the Games.

The centrepiece of the Park – the Olympic Stadium – will also host elite international sporting action, including five matches during the 2015 Rugby World Cup and the IAAF and IPC Athletics World Championships in 2017. From 2016, it will also be the home of English Premier League football club West Ham United, who will take residency as the Stadium’s long-term anchor tenant.

The Olympic Park’s Copper Box venue has already reopened for public use, offering courts for 20 different sports including basketball, boxing and badminton as well as a state-of-the-art gym. The venue will not only provide fantastic facilities for the community, it will also be a home for elite sport, with the London Lions basketball team set to play their home matches at the arena.

But the Games have not only provided London and its residents with new sporting facilities, they also led to major infrastructure improvements, with Transport for London investing GBP 6.5 billion in its transport network in preparation for the 2012 Games.

This investment included ten railway lines and 30 new bridges, which will continue to connect London communities after the Games, while at least 60 Games-related projects were initiated to promote greener travel, including a GBP 10 million investment to upgrade pedestrian and cycling routes across London.

The Olympic Village, meanwhile, will also provide a permanent legacy for the whole of London, creating a brand new residential quarter of the city, to be known as “East Village”.

The Athletes’ Village is being transformed into 2,818 new homes – including 1,379 affordable homes – providing essential new housing for more than 6,000 people in east London. New parklands, open space and community facilities will also support the communities that develop in the area following the Games."

[leoedin]

From a logical point of view, we could have spent that money on those venues without the Olympics. There was nothing stopping us spending £6.5bn on transport, or building flats in Stratford, or building a velodrome, without the Olympics. In fact, you could argue it would be more cost effective - many of the Olympic venues aren't wholly suited to other uses (eg the stadium isn't the stadium a football team would build).

The only real argument for the Olympics from a legacy point of view is that it provides a fixed deadline and a potential for very public failure if you don't deliver - which probably stopped a lot of the graft and politicising that would normally accompany infrastructure investments of this size.

[DevX101]

Hosting the Olympics costs somewhere between US$15-20 billion.

If the goal is really to put a city 'on the map' you could spend less than 5% of that money on an extensive cultural/tourism marketing campaign and have more of an effect. I've yet to meet anyone who's chosen Sochi as a vacation destination.

[iso1631]

Sochi is hardly open for tourism - the closest international market, Europe, requires visas to visit, and not even visas on arrival like countries like Turkey.

Far less hassle for someone from Germany to visit Cairo, Dubai, Nairobi, New York, than to visit Sochi.

Same issue with holding the world cup in 2018.

Give a 30 day tourist visa on arrival and they'd get far more tourists

[Retric]

Winter Olympics locations rarely end up as tourist destinations because people take fewer international vacations to cold locations. Summer Olympics have a better shot, and the stadiums can more often be useful long term. But, it’s still low odds of success.

The best bet seems to be a lesser known location which can use most of the infrastructure and has some non Olympics tourist destinations. Which isn’t a huge list, but there have been a few.

[headcanon]

Not disagreeing, but they can evolve into training meccas for specific winter sports. Lake Placid is a good example - they hosted the winter olympics in 1932 and 1980 (the "Miracle on Ice" year). Currently the town subsists on winter sports athletes traveling there to train, with all the other services to support it.

[rjsw]

> Winter Olympics locations rarely end up as tourist destinations because people take fewer international vacations to cold locations.

I would describe it differently, the facilities used for skiing events are usually already tourist locations, plenty of people take international skiing vacations.

[Retric]

It’s purely a numbers game, ski trips happen but are really a small subset of trips. Meanwhile 1/2 of the Olympic city’s host winter games.

[rjsw]

The venues for Olympic Winter games are by definition where people go for ski trips, they may build varying amounts of infrastructure for non-skiing events but they will have an economy already geared around tourism.

[sandworm101]

>> Winter Olympics locations rarely end up as tourist destinations

Whistler. But then again it was a huge destination before the olympics too.

[Ceezy]

They just need an other Olympic Game to remind people...

[johannes1234321]

Aside from financial gains through tourism etc. I have another observation from the 1972 Olympic Games here in Munich: Hosting the Olympic Games was a booster for infrastructure projects. Like some new roads, finally deciding to build an underground, building a suburban sub-surfsce rail line through the city center and convert it to pedestrian area, ...

Multiple of those projects where pushed off before, but Olympics gave the "let's do it" spirit for those huge projects.

Having those projects done is an important part of today's quality of life here (while since the late 90ies underground construction mostly stopped and we're seeing consequences as the city grows ...)

[rpadovani]

I know only about this study about the costs, without any consideration about if they are worth it or not: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2804554

Living in Munich I have to say that the amazing park and infrastructures (widely used nowadays and close to the city center) left after the tragic 1972 Olympics are definitely worthy of the $1B spent over infrastructure

[ekianjo]

Usually not worth it. And most facilities are decay into ruins or are completely under utilized. Olympic games of Waste.

[kungito]

I cannot imagine Barcelona needing something to put it on a map. Am not spanish

[DocTomoe]

Barcelona Olympics happened in 1992. Back then, foreign tourists tended to go to the Balearic Islands almost exclusively, Barcelona was kind of an inside tip for the young backpackers.

Memories of an actually fascist government (which only disappeared some 15 years before) were still very present, and many foreigners thought the islands to be "safe tourist resorts", much like the tourist resorts of Cuba today (with few, mostly Boheme types ever leaving them during their stay).

Not sure if Barcelona as a tourist destination was caused by the Olympics, but in 1991, it certainly was not a major destination for Europeans.

[elif]

I was in japan for the Rugby World Cup (late 2019) and i can say I am hugely relieved that Japan will not have to host olympic crowds.

Westerners looked at the lack of public trashcans and decided it was not their responsibility and simply leave trash everywhere. They smoked in non-smoking hotels. They turned public transit from a library into a pub. They ignored all queueing procedures. I even heard a scottish man brag that he never flushed a toilet the entire time in japan because he was "afraid of it spraying him if he pushed the wrong button"

I would imagine for most locals, they are extremely relieved to not have to put up with the same thing x 5

[Mauricebranagh]

Well possibly such events should be not be awarded to countries with poor worker protection and H&S rule? do you think your country falls into this group.

Also you know that Ireland deliberately wanted to lose Eurovision at one point.

[nikanj]

You hopefully paid to attract loads of event tourists, who bring money to the local economy

[Blikkentrekker]

> This together with all the sub-human conditions the workers in Qatar for the football world championship

Are they not simply de factō slaves? deprived of a right to leave at their choosing?

That the world accepts this shows well the hypocrisy of man. — I suppose that for all of his theoretical abhorrence by slavery, a good football match weights heavier than that.

[toyg]

I don't think "the world accepts it", but they are resigned to the fact that the moneyed interests powering these events are unstoppable. Which may or may not be true. Some of the opposition is even tactically waiting for the best time to make a stand - which might well be when the country is most exposed. See for example how the Yemeni Houti rebels tried to hit a Formula E event in Saudi Arabia with missiles.

The worst thing, imho, is that Qatar is not even remotely the worst actor in the region. A World Cup in Saudi Arabia might well be inevitable over the next 20 years, and that will be even worse.

[Blikkentrekker]

The world could easily pressure Qatar into abolishing this, but it does not do so.

We're speaking of countries that were willing to wage costly wars on flimsy evidence of w.m.d.'s, that are now not willing to pressure a nation over real evidence of slavery.

[AnIdiotOnTheNet]

One of those countries refuses to enact a reasonable minimum wage to this day. That one in particular has no issue whatsoever with treating labor poorly.

[michaelt]

The US could indeed pressure Quatar over slavery, or Saudi Arabia over Khashoggi and human rights, or China over Uighur Muslims and emissions, or Russia over Ukraine and corruption, or Iran and North Korea over nuclear weapons, or Israel and all its neighbours to get a move on with the peace process, or the UK about the Irish border and laundering Russian money, or Mexico about border security and the drugs trade, or Myanmar about restoring democratic rule, or Japan about whaling or Turkey about treatment of their Kurdish minority.

But pressuring them all at once, and hard enough to get results? That could leave the US in a lonely spot.

[matsemann]

Grass root of Norwegian soccer is now calling for a boycott. Of course easy to say, as we probably won't qualify.. But i hope it could gain momentum.