[nemothekid]

People here advocate for them to have pleasant conditions because it ultimately produces a society that has less people who would rape their own mothers.

It's people like you who are so blinded by your hunger for revenge to actually consider solutions that would decrease our recidivism rates.

[jjcon]

Even if that were the case, is outcomes the only thing to value here? Revenge for the wronged is a part of the justice isn’t it?

[nemothekid]

>Revenge for the wronged is a part of the justice isn’t it?

No it is not. Revenge is not justice. Human society has come a long way from Hammurabi; we got rid of "eye for an eye" centuries ago. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" is what is wrong here.

[jjcon]

Fundamentally though it is not still about some level of revenge? Just because we got more sophisticated to take into account things like intent doesn’t really change the math. You’ve made a nice quote but drawn a distinction without drawing a difference

If I steal $2k the punishment is usually still give $2k back and then all fees then even some punitive damages...

[nemothekid]

>If I steal $2k the punishment is usually still give $2k back and then all fees then even some punitive damages...

If I kill your brother, is it proper justice for you to kill my brother?

Many crimes are irreversible; and revenge only serves to make the victimized feel better but ultimately does not restore balance. Justifying revenge quickly leads you down to inhumane punishments - after all who's to say the victim was given their fill of revenge? This is why there has always been a philosophical line between justice and revenge.

[yellowapple]

> is outcomes the only thing to value here?

Yes.

The whole point of a criminal justice system is to reduce crime. That definitionally means focusing on making sure prison doors ain't revolving. Whether that crime reduction meets some individual's arbitrary standards of retribution is entirely secondary to that fundamental primary objective; revenge for the sake of revenge is not justice, but rather the precise opposite.

[jjcon]

> The whole point of a criminal justice system is to reduce crime.

I think the justice system is just what the people think it should be... not some unarguable objective goal.

Having said that... people value revenge. If we automatically released all killers because we had a drug or 10 day program that would 100% prevent reoffence, I don’t think people would call that justice. Right or wrong, I think in most people’s eyes justice demands some level of revenge if not to a specific person, then to society at large.

[landryraccoon]

Restoration of the wronged is more valuable than revenge for the wronged. A rehabilitated prisoner can pay restitution, an executed or habitually imprisoned criminal can’t pay restitution.

[Kharvok]

Any evidence this works for violent crimes?

[yellowapple]

Norway seems to be doing quite alright with this approach: https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846