[awb]

I think the discussion about “master” started within the context of “master/slave” DBs.

“Master” has both a non-racist and racist definition. After seeing it used in the context of a “slave” DB, I can see why the innocence of the word was lost for many in the programming community.

[danenania]

How can the definition of a word be racist? Making people slaves based on race was, obviously, horribly racist. But the words "master" and "slave" are not inherently racist.

[Uberphallus]

Moreover, "slave" ultimately comes from Latin "sclavus", which came from Slav, as Slavs were sold off for purposes of servitude.

Slavs, as in, the white European ethnic group.

Edit: wow, downvotes for factual info[0][1]. Go back to reddit.

[0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv16zk023.7

[1] https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=41445

[awb]

Ok, and the swastika was an old religious symbol. Things change over time. The most recent interpretation is often the most relevant.

In the US a swastika evokes memories of Nazis and the word pair “master/slave” evokes memories of white masters and black slaves.

[Uberphallus]

> Ok, and the swastika was an old religious symbol.

It's a current religious symbol. It's everywhere in Asia. Lots of media get swastikas edited out when sent for consumption in the West. Nobody cares.

> The most recent interpretation is often the most relevant.

You mean the almost exclusively US interpretation is the most relevant.

> In the US...

See?

[ttt0]

> You mean the almost exclusively US interpretation is the most relevant.

As far as I'm considered, the worst part about this is that because of American propaganda in the mass media and popculture, people from outside the States are projecting American history and problems onto themselves, because that's a hip and cool thing to do now.

[Uberphallus]

I wish you were kidding. We have enough with our own cultural traumas to tackle the American ones on top, but some people really really want them.

[awb]

We’re on a forum of a US-based VC firm. The majority of companies and news discussed here is US-focused, so yeah the US view is relevant.

[chmod600]

It's not racist, but it introduces horrible historical baggage into a place it doesn't belong.

I don't mean to exaggerate... it's just words and we use all kinds of expressions that have roots in something objectionable.

Unfortunately people twist something from "mildly/moderately inappropriate" into "racist", which I agree is ridiculous.

[awb]

Sorry, I mean “master” can be used to describe a racist slaveowner or a non-racist skilled worker among many other definitions. But using the words master and slave together is to my knowledge primarily used in the context of describing a racist relationship, especially in America. The word pair has been co-opted by the programming community but I’m not sure why originally.

[aksss]

I was familiar with it in the hardware world before I was ever exposed to it in software, as in master and slave devices in SCSI, then later in context of data replication. People opposed to these words are making them racist (or acquiescing to those that want us to think that way) where their origin was never anything of the sort. The master/slave relationship predated the American continent and across the broad swath of human history has been a pretty color-blind enterprise. This accommodation to absurd American sensitivities is an embarrassing insult to basic intelligence that’s only getting worse. People need to grow the F up.

[awb]

> People opposed to these words are making them racist (or acquiescing to those that want us to think that way) where their origin was never anything of the sort

I’m pretty sure actual masters and slaves were the origins of the words and predate your SCSI example.

> The master/slave relationship predated the American continent and across the broad swath of human history has been a pretty color-blind enterprise

But it’s never been healthy or admirable, wether based on racism, class, tribalism, religion, etc.

So we’re upset that we can’t personify inanimate objects and describe mechanical processes using words that were originally used to describe horrible human behavior? Is this really the hill to fight on? Does renaming a DB pair primary/secondary really mark the downfall of our society? No one is trying to make you “acquiesce”. If personifying an application with the words master/slave is super important to you, go for it.

It just seems more odd to me those that insist on using it rather than the multitude of words that aren’t associated with generational pain and suffering.

[aksss]

> actual masters and slaves predate

Obviously, where did you read me saying otherwise?

> [bunch of hyperbole about downfall of civilization]

The idiocy of attempting to change language like this and the rationale given is certainly making society dumber, to say nothing of the insulting nature of people pretending this buffoonery is perfectly natural.

> no one is trying to make you acquiesce

The comments on this thread contain many examples and testimonies to the contrary - corporate training programs, censorship.

> seems odd to me

Perhaps it’s odd to you because you see it as a small and limited change; it’s ridiculous to me because there’s no limiting principle to what’s offensive. This word pair is actually one of the less ridiculous attempts at linguistic overhaul (somewhat less ridiculous than trying to ban whitelist/blacklist, e.g.).

[awb]

> where did you read me saying otherwise?

> where their origin was never anything of the sort

It sounded like you were trying to use the SCSI example or the programming example to show that “master/slave” is an innocuous word pair commonly used in ways that don’t apply to the slave trade. But their semantic origin is the slave trade. It’s like if we started referring to DB wipes as “genocides”. The origin of “genocide” and emotional impact of the word doesn’t change when the word is co-opted (poorly and for no ideal reason) down the road.

It sounds likes silly argument to argue that the origin of the word pair and it’s emotional/historical context should be secondary (or even ignored) because it was used innocently in a niche domain like hardware or software far later down the line. I guess I’m arguing the reverse that the original meaning matters the most and the latter applications of the word matter the least, simply because the original meaning is still taught in school and used as a reminder of the horrors of human behavior while the overhauled use of the word pair is a poor analogy that directly attempts to reference that original meaning.

> This word pair is actually one of the less ridiculous attempts at linguistic overhaul

Yet there’s huge resistance and debate about it. I don’t understand why one would want to draw a line in the sand here and insist on overhauling the original meaning of an emotionally charged word like “slave” to poorly personify an inanimate process. Even if I was going to personify a replica DB, I’d call it a “clone” or “twin”. I don’t think renaming “master/slave” is the social oppression / thought police we’re all worried about.

[dmt0]

America is probably just one of very few cases in human history where slavery was based on race.

[ttt0]

Slavery was almost always based on race/ethnicity.