[gkoberger]

Yeah, he's the worst. I knew him in YC, and actually liked him. But I watched him spiral as he wasn't able to raise money for his startup, including starting to go to Trump rallies "out of curiosity". His FB posts began to include worse and worse rhetoric. It was crazy to watch him get radicalized in realtime. It ended in him harassing some (minority) YC founders who said they were scared by saying we should "Build the wall".

(Edit: His comments were worse than I let on; here's the full context https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...)

[minimaxir]

HN thread from 2016 on Torba getting booted: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12934388

Includes comments from Sam Altman and Torba, posting as rvcamo

[hluska]

That's an interesting thread as Fosco got involved too.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12935057

[minimaxir]

Note that Fosco was not Gab’s CTO until recently, which makes his appearance in that thread a funny coincidence.

[hluska]

I found it quite fascinating how similar their ideas were in that thread but I'm interested in how people are converted into extremist movements.

[weeblewobble]

This thread is really eye-opening about how stagnant the discourse around free speech/wokeness/political correctness has been. Four years later and the conversation would be exactly the same today.

[crocodiletears]

It's cultural trench warfare. We're in a very profitable (for media companies that harvest clicks off of outrage) stalemate.

We need to develop new rhetorical and ideological tools too push the conversation in any meaningful direction. We also need to be able to disseminate them.

[shinsheel]

I really hate how Sam didn't respond on the first objection about double standards when other founders openly sexually harassed women on the streets and got nothing for that.

Like...what, commentator just made it all up and nobody noticed? Or it actually happened and Sam doesn't have even the minimal plausible excuse?

[TeMPOraL]

On a surface read, the author of the second objection may have not realized that prank videos are made with actors, not unsuspecting strangers.

[tibbydudeza]

He really drunk the kool-aid becoming part of the cult. It is not everyday you see the CEO of a company saying "Gab Does Not Negotiate With Criminal Demons".

[smaryjerry]

It is a strange use of language so it would be interesting to see what he defines a demon as. If he has said “Gab does not negotiate with evil people” no one would have cared but saying demon criminals brings forth images of horned beings we all see in fantasy movies, perhaps that’s the imagery he was going for.

[stjohnswarts]

Someone got freaked out because he said "build the wall"? Oh come on, I think its a magnanimous monument to stupidity but surely someone wouldn't actually be -afraid- after hearing that. Anger, resentment, disgust I understand. However being afraid of these people is ridiculous. Thanks for the article!

Edit: read the article. YC threw him out because he was harassing people, not because he was conservative or threatened anyone. Obviously you have to be respectful and tolerant in a group like YC regardless of your political leanings. I see why he got the boot, his comments were hot garbage.

[konjin]

I'm a minority, and I feel really fucking stupid that I have to say that so I don't get banned, but how on earth can anyone get expelled for saying they support the policy of the US government?

That is insular to the point of caricature for out of touch democrat staffing aids, not people trying to make money.

[calciphus]

Private groups don't have to swear fealty to the government. Individuals are allowed and encouraged to dissent, form groups of dissention, and don't owe it to anyone to grant them access to that group.

Regardless of one's personal politics, insisting "if the government says it's ok, you shouldn't be allowed to reject someone who supports it" isn't really in line with the core ideals of the US, where YC is organized.

[konjin]

Alienating 50% of customers, and lets be honest these are the stupider customers you can more easily monetize, is not a good move for anyone trying to make money, which is the point of a startup.

A well thought out Gab that was politically neutral will be able to steal the most engaged facebook users and then then sell them gold, guns and bibles, or whatever else those folks enjoy in their spare time.

This isn't an issue of morals, it's an issue of money.

[gkoberger]

Sorry, that's my fault, I'm going to edit my comment. I downplayed what he said.

Here's the full comments: https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...

[konjin]

Ok, I can see why you'd get expelled over that.

[skissane]

According to Techcrunch [0]:

> Torba had also tweeted a screenshot of another founder’s Facebook comment (the founder’s name was removed) that “being a black, Muslim or woman in the USA is going to be very scary” with his own comment: “Build the wall.” Then, in another thread, a YC alum alluded to Torba’s behavior without mentioning him by name, prompting him to jump in: “Say my name when you talk about me, coward. Build the wall.”

He wasn't just publicly supporting Trump's border wall policy, he was doing it in an assholeish way, and directing that towards other YC founders. If he'd cut out the assholeish manner and the direction towards fellow founders, and just kept the publicly supporting Trump's policies part, I doubt YC would have responded in the same manner. That's consistent with Kat Manalac's email quoted in the same article – he was banned for behaving in a hostile way, not purely for his political beliefs.

[0] https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...

[s5300]

Getting into the realm of Reddit tier comments in replying to this...

But in a genuine attempt to clear you up -

The people who made Nazi Germany a thing were "just citizens of Germany supporting the policy of the German government."

Institutions, such as YC, typically tend to have a set of morals/guidelines that they follow (and usually clearly state)

If it so happens that a policy of the US government goes against said morals/guidelines and you're in support of them... as what most see as a pretty important part of being in the US, they're free to give you the boot from their institution.

If they who be booted perceive their bootening as something that is illegal, they're also free to sue. Whether or not that lawsuit is credible/goes anywhere is up to a judiciary.

[ben_w]

Replying to both your nearly invisible comments: On the one hand, yes, selling things to people is the point.

On the other hand, one does not need to be an ass to one group just to get trade from another. Tim Cook was part of the big tech group that used to meet with Trump, yet managed to maintain corporate policies that are (from my non American POV) stereotypical of the American left.

[8note]

Not everyone agrees with the policies of the US government, including private businessess

[akhilcacharya]

As someone that is also a minority, I'm both aware and heartbroken that it became a very popular form of bullying towards children after 2015 [0].

Racist bullying isn't new of course, but this particular phrase is fairly new.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/local/school-bu...

[kyrra]

.

[konjin]

That isn't anger, it's genuine incredulity.

[antupis]

It is like modern day version of Hitler did not getting in art school.

[ALittleLight]

Except he did get into YC and he's not a genocidal dictator so much as an angry and inappropriate person online.

[atoav]

As both an former art student and Austrian living in Germany I don't think it is forbidden to think about how Hitler became Hitler.

Because for some time of his life Hitler was just some angry guy until he turned to a fully fledged genozidal fascist dictator.

Hitlers antisemitism was partly created by his rejection in the viennese academy and his hurt ego made him want to pay them back for the rest of his life.

Why should forbid ourselves from talking about that psychological mechanism? Because Hitler is not seen as a human but a demon? Because accepting Hitler as a human would mean this could happen again, with us in the role of the baddies?

When your main reaction to personal rejection is to search for a scapegoat, because you can't handle it otherwise you are going down a similar path. Surely most will calm down on the way, surely most will not do so in a political and historical environment that allows them to become violent or even genocidal, but why not talk about it?

[ALittleLight]

There are many, many, more people who blamed scapegoats or were angry than became Hitler or Hitler-like figures. Likening Torba to Hitler because both of them are angry is an extreme and unproductive association. I think it's enough to say "You should treat people with respect" or "You shouldn't say that Mr. Torba", or even "Andrew Torba is a racist/transphobe/etc" without having to liken him to Hitler.

Hitler didn't switch from angry guy to legitimate problem overnight. He did things like forming a political party replete with armed forces and attempting a coup. I don't think building a mostly-failed Twitter clone is comparable.

[heckerhut]

Well, it’s exactly what you would do in today’s society, actually. You’d build a social network first. That is also why Zuckerberg is so dangerous.

[totalZero]

He got expelled from YC for saying we should build a border wall?

Really?

[gkoberger]

I edited my comment. The full quotes are much worse. Here's the details: https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-...

[totalZero]

Thanks, and wow... he sounds like a perpetual drain on the energy and sanity of all of the people around him.

[raverbashing]

Exactly this. Opinions apart, the guy is just a giant pain in the behind

If he was that obtuse and verbose about picking website colours he would have been booted the same way but of course a-holes pick the topics they know will cause the most controversy.

[dillondoyle]

The stuff he is tweeting from the official Gab twitter is truly hellishly insane !

"As per my policy of not communicating with non-Christian and/or communist journos, I will not be replying to this non-story. "

https://twitter.com/getongab/status/1366954798524887042

[gkoberger]

Just for context, the situation being referenced here is that Gab claims Donald Trump is verified on the platform but the address associated with the account is really the CEO's email (Kuhcoon was his YC company).

[refurb]

Maybe I'm missing some context, but what about that Tweet was disgusting versus just trashy or in poor taste? Compared to some of the crap on Twitter it's pretty tame.

[bawolff]

The word disgusting literally means to be in extremely poor taste (e.g. "the rotton food i ate was disgusting")

[sumedh]

> YC’s private social network, Bookface

They could not find a better name than Bookface?

[gkoberger]

Haha I like it! It's vaguely amusing, and it's completely unique so easy to reference (vs "oh I posted it on the internal YC forums").

[Others]

I understand this comment was made before the edit. However, is it really that surprising that “build a wall” narratives and racism to hand in hand?

(It’s not as if the border wall makes any logical sense, since the southern border is too long to wall off, and the majority of illegal immigration is visa overstays anyway (https://apnews.com/article/48d0ad46f143478d9384410f5ae3d38b))

[totalZero]

SF (and the US tech sphere at large) isn't an environment where people are taught to bridge the divide and understand others who think differently than they do. But booting someone from YC for simply supporting a pretty mainstream viewpoint would be surprising, even in that environment.

Then again, I was downvoted for requesting confirmation of a statement that turned out to be inaccurate. So maybe SF (and the tech zeitgeist to which it is fused) has fallen off that cliff already. He wasn't booted for supporting the wall. He was booted for being an obnoxious asshole to many others, including YC peers.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has expressed surprise that racism and support for building the wall often go hand in hand.

But that doesn't mean all comments supporting a wall are necessarily racist. If you say "we need a border wall to stop cartels from profiting off of human trafficking, and should instead offer more visas for migrant workers from Central America," that's not a particularly racist view.

[kelnos]

> SF (and the US tech sphere at large) isn't an environment where people are taught to bridge the divide and understand others who think differently than they do.

You're painting a very diverse group with quite a broad brush. People in SF and the US tech sphere come from all over the place (even outside the US) and from many different backgrounds. People in US tech circles live and work side-by-side with people from all around the world, many of whom have been directly materially harmed by the right's politics. That's not an opinion or some kind of political position; it's a fact of life. From that, I can only assume that most Trump supporters either don't know people who come from different backgrounds, or simply don't care about or actively dislike such people. (And yes, of course there are exceptions to that! I know some of them.)

For my part, I try very hard to understand why people support Trump. The fact that a quarter of the country voted for him last November frankly scares me, and I want to understand why, and find ways to bridge the gap. I personally find support for him back in 2016 pretty understandable (if still a bit gross), but I'm scared for the future of the country that he still maintained so much support through 2020 despite his alarmingly high number of daily lies while he was in office, and his overwhelmingly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, anti-science, anti-rational attitude. Over the past few years, I've talked to several people in person about their support of Trump (and right-leaning policies in general), but (with one single exception) they were all obstinate and unwilling to accept objective facts that conflicted with their ideology, to the point that they'd get defensive and angry and make further conversation pointless.

At this point the only reason I can see to support Trump is that you're so fed up with the establishment that you just want to watch the world burn, even if the guy doing the burning has based nearly all his policy positions on lies, and doesn't actually intend to help his supporters at all.

> But booting someone from YC for simply supporting a pretty mainstream viewpoint would be surprising, even in that environment.

As you noted, he wasn't booted for supporting a mainstream viewpoint; he was booted for harassing other YC founders with his political views, harassment that took a decidedly racist/xenophobic turn.

> But that doesn't mean all comments supporting a wall are necessarily racist. If you say "we need a border wall to stop cartels from profiting off of human trafficking, and should instead offer more visas for migrant workers from Central America," that's not a particularly racist view.

True, but unfortunately the overtly racist calls for a border wall tend to drown out the people who are attempting to be reasonable, so it's understandable for nearly anyone -- especially an immigrant -- to have a negative knee-jerk reaction to the topic.

Beyond that, where's the evidence that a border wall even helps with the things you're talking about? From what I understand, most human (and drug) trafficking takes place by plane or boat, or over land using legal ports of entry. And that's the thing that a lot of us find suspicious: the reasons stated for building a border wall might sound reasonable on the surface, but when you dig more, you find that a border wall doesn't actually make a meaningful dent in the problem being talked about. So then you can only draw one of two conclusions: either the person is woefully ignorant about the benefit of a border wall, or they know that a border wall isn't helpful and are just promoting it for xenophobic reasons. And when someone in the first camp still supports the wall after you give them evidence that it won't solve what they're talking about, they somehow still support it, so you naturally assume that they've actually been in the xenophobic camp the entire time.

Also, to zero in on one part of it:

> "... and should instead offer more visas for migrant workers from Central America"

Where are the border-wall-supporters who also support this? I haven't heard of any, but I do admit it's possible they're much quieter voices than the people who advocate for closing the border entirely, to the point of drowning them out.

But I've really veered too far off into politics-land, which tends not to contribute to productive discussion on HN, so I should probably stop...

[totalZero]

Diversity of opinion is about much more than ethnic background. Also, just to be clear, I haven't said anything about Trump in my three other comments in this thread. CTRL+F me.

> As you noted, he wasn't booted for supporting a mainstream viewpoint; he was booted for harassing other YC founders with his political views, harassment that took a decidedly racist/xenophobic turn.

The original comment didn't link to additional information, and simply said the dude was booted for saying "build the wall" to someone else. Seemed like an extreme reaction by YC, so I asked if that's really what happened, which is when the link was provided and more nuance was commented by others. Check the timestamp on my comment. There was another guy, too, who had the same reaction as me at around the same time, but he was downvoted to oblivion for some reason (again, the intolerant SF zeitgeist) so you may not have seen his comment.

> I do admit it's possible they're much quieter voices

Bingo. The extremists on one side are so quick to cancel the extremists on the other side, that the people in the middle just shut up and keep their heads down. The end result is actually a worse public conversation, polarized and undamped.

[kelnos]

> Diversity of opinion is about much more than ethnic background.

Agreed, though restricting your interactions (even unintentionally) to people of the same background as you does have a big limiting effect on the kind of opinions you'll have. It's a physical echo chamber for some attitudes.

But you can make the same parallels for other attributes: how many openly LGBTQ people live in heavily conservative areas vs. liberal? Definitely fewer. In many conservative areas, LGBTQ folks literally fear for their lives. As a consequence, conservative people have less experience and understanding of these folks, and that (among other things) leads to fear or even hate.

> Also, just to be clear, I haven't said anything about Trump in my three other comments in this thread. CTRL+F me.

Never claimed you did; no need to be so defensive about this. You suggested that people in the bay area / US tech circles don't try to consider other people's perspectives. Given that most tech people in the bay area are left-leaning, it stands to reason they're not Trump supporters. Regardless, I was merely talking about my own personal experience as someone trying to understand people with (a particular type of) different values from mine, and mostly failing.

[smaryjerry]

It actually does make sense if your goal is not to stop immigration but criminal immigration and drug trafficking. People that could never received a visa in the first place due to a criminal background are who it really keeps out.

[walrus01]

He got expelled from YC for saying much worse than that. You can find archived copies of his old social media posts if you really feel like rolling in filth.

[totalZero]

No thanks. I've already seen enough to relegate him to the "fuck that guy" bucket in my head. The tweet about non-Christian journalists, for example.