[smoldesu]

Honestly, I'm starting to understand Louis Rossman's indifference towards these computers. In one of his most recent streams, someone asked him what he thought about the M1 Macs, and he simply responded "it's faster than the last computer Apple made", which summed up a lot of how I feel about it too. I'm saying this as my M1 Macbook Air sits on a shelf collecting dust a few feet away from me, which is definitely not the fate I wanted for it.

I bought the Macbook Air with the intention of using it to replace my aging desktop rig, but was pretty surprised to find that it couldn't drive both of my monitors. Now I had to choose between my 1440p monitor which flickered violently when attached to the Macbook, or my 1080p panel which had a much less disturbing pink line in the bottom half of the screen. After a few hours of troubleshooting, I plugged my desktop in and promised that I'd use the Macbook Air to replace my Thinkpad. At that point though, the value proposition of the computer was so diminished that I couldn't really justify using it. I can't use my OS of choice on it, I can't use my software of choice on it, I can't upgrade or fix anything on it, and I can't trust the swap to not shred the SSD.

Am I missing something here? Time and time again I hear people say "you're not the target audience", and I'm getting the impression they're right.

[least]

> I bought the Macbook Air with the intention of using it to replace my aging desktop rig, but was pretty surprised to find that it couldn't drive both of my monitors.

> I can't use my OS of choice on it, I can't use my software of choice on it, I can't upgrade or fix anything on it, and I can't trust the swap to not shred the SSD.

Minimal due diligence would probably have helped you not waste 1000+ dollars on a laptop that pretty apparently wasn't going to meet your needs.

You can't will the laptop into running linux/windows or x86_64 software. You can't will it into having better connectivity or supporting more than one display. These are things that you knew or should have known before purchasing it.

I think the value in a macbook air is that it's relatively powerful for its form factor, has excellent battery life, and is completely silent due to being fanless. A lot of the attractiveness of the product goes away if you _must_ run linux/windows or if you're using it primarily docked.

[volta83]

+1 I'm in a similar situation as the op, but I didn't buy a new macbook air due to most of the reasons mentioned.

Everybody knew that Linux support was going to be broken on day 1 and require multiple months of work to get better.

TBH I was surprised at the lack of multi-monitor support, this is something that one just expects "it just works" on 2021. Only discovered it reading the comments here, completely missed it when watching the Keynote and looking at Apple's website.

[rattray]

Speaking as another sad owner of a Macbook Air (pre-M1), I do wish Apple made it more clear that they can't drive monitors well, but I agree with your overall sentiment – OP probably would have been much, much happier with a higher-spec'd M1 MBP (though given the price and their OS preference, maybe still not happy enough).

[perardi]

I too agree that the display limitations are non-obvious.

I’m not sure if it’s a typical use case to run 2 displays on an Air, but that is a way more obvious set of affairs on a Mac mini, especially for a developer porting/testing software for the new architecture. You can run 2 displays on the Mac mini…but not the same way you used to.

https://thesweetsetup.com/running-multiple-monitors-on-an-m1...

(That is actually a clearer guide than Apple’s support docs.)

[rattray]

Yeah, another gotcha is that my MBA can't even drive a single 4k display at 60FPS, which I'm not sure was visible anywhere on the product page. (Not sure whether this limitation holds for the M1 MBA).

[smoldesu]

Yep, that was particularly disappointing to me. My 1440p panel supports up to 144hz, but MacOS only acknowledged 50hz and 60hz for the panel. Not that it made much of a difference in the first place, a flashing panel at 60hz is just as unusable as a flashing panel at 144hz.

[silicon2401]

Thanks for sharing this, I've been wanting a Mac Mini but am now wondering if it's worth it with this strange caveat

[MarkSweep]

Both the MBP and MBA say this in their tech specs, so getting the MBP would not help:

> Simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display at millions of colors and: > One external display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz

The M1 Mac Mini can drive two displays: 6k on Thunderbolt and 4K on HDMI.

[cowmoo728]

The 2020 M1 macbook pro made no sense though. It was a macbook air with a cpu fan, touch bar, improved sound + display for an extra $300. The CPU and GPU and ports were identical.

[rattray]

Wow, right. The M1 MBP available now doesn't even have 4 ports. Definitely still worth waiting...

[smoldesu]

I agree, and they were big mistakes on my behalf. I'm not particularly hostile towards Apple, and I exclusively used iPhones for the first half of the last decade. My assumption was that Apple would have these issues ironed out, especially on a product they were comfortable calling "Pro".

[musicale]

> I can't use my OS of choice on it, I can't use my software of choice on it, I can't upgrade or fix anything on it, and I can't trust the swap to not shred the SSD.

If your OS of choice is (Windows/Linux), Apple doesn't have a strong incentive to support it.

If your software of choice is x86 Docker, Apple doesn't have a strong incentive to support it.

As a company that makes money from hardware sales and prioritizes thin, light laptops, and has moved to SoC design for better battery life on said laptops, Apple de-prioritizes upgradability and fixability.

However, shredding the built-in SSD is a bug that I'd expect them to fix. I'd also expect them to replace the SSD if it fails.

> My assumption was that Apple would have these issues ironed out, especially on a product they were comfortable calling "Pro".

Apple's definition of "Pro" is probably different from yours. For Apple, "Pro" seems to mean "runs Apple's Pro apps like Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro and Xcode." And even though the M1 Macbook and M1 Mac mini aren't called "Pro", they are still excellent machines for FCP, Logic, and Xcode.

Overall, it sounds like Macs and macOS may not be a good fit for you.

[whoisburbansky]

Isn't the SSD on the M1s soldered on, like all the other components? Replacing it would involve replacing the entire motherboard, right, or am I missing something?

[dwaite]

Yep. I would expect them to either send it off for a logic board replacement or offer you an equivalent model if they have one in stock.

[aaomidi]

They're likely to just give you a new laptop and send you on your way.

[marricks]

Apple launch M1 for their smallest cheapest computers first, if you want drive multiple screens you are not their target audience.

I think it's understandable devs are confused a bit, it's a flashy new thing and we want to try it, but it's not for power users. Another confusing aspect, at least to me, is it's stand out feature is battery life! We're all stuck at home though, so when is a charger more than 4 feet away from me?

Since they have an apparently amazing thermal headroom and battery life for their entry level machines I think it's safe to hope that whatever powers their 16" MBP will be a barn buster and meet your multiscreen needs.

[AtlasBarfed]

Apple is "Premium" computing products company, and further advertises in the content creation space for artists, etc.

Not properly driving monitors is a major fail, if that's true. It also ignores the fact early adopters will be technical and have a "basic" technical need like that.

Apple almost always supports the highest-bandwidth ports, precisely to drive large high-resolution monitors.

I've been thinking about M1, but this comment just nixed it. Maybe when it's out of beta.

[musicale]

As noted above, the M1 Mac mini can drive two monitors, one 4K and one 6K.

[smoldesu]

I can only hope. It would also be nice to see proper Linux support, but I guess that's wishful thinking from Apple.

[marricks]

Yeah... personally that is what makes me most reticent about M1 and future products.

With intel you know virtual machines and what not will just work, here Apple actually has to provide driver information and such or we’ll all just rely on hacks which could change generation to generation :(

[eschaton]

Virtual machines work, Apple provides not just Hypervisor.framework but also Virtualization.framework as part of macOS so implementing a headless VM app is less than a page or so of code.

[eschaton]

What would be the point of (and what even is) “proper Linux support?” It’s a Mac, why would you get it not to use as a Mac?

[abc_lisper]

Just as a counterpoint, I got a M1 just because, but actually love it as a dev machine. It is the first laptop I have that is absolutely silent, and the only one that doesn't try to burn my lap. If it is hotter than my skin below, I can't tell.

[serverholic]

Honest question, what made you think that a macbook air would replace a desktop computer?

[smoldesu]

I used a work-provided Thinkpad P51 that did replace my desktop, and it was a dream to use alongside the docking station. It's no longer in my possession though, and the specs on that machine were looking a little dated. I bought the M1 Air because it was cheap and supposedly replaced some people's desktops. Even still I don't think I took a loss on it. In a few months I could probably sell it for a cool $800 and not lose terribly much of my investment.

[tyingq]

It sounds like he just wanted it to drive external monitors without issues.

[AmVess]

My M1 MBA is faster than my 4790K desktop, and by a decent margin. It is fast enough that I'd be able to have it as a main computer if I needed it to be. My main PC is an 8 core Ryzen.

[folkrav]

A decently fast laptop can definitely replace an older desktop computer without issue. When my old gaming rig died in 2017, I bought a laptop for work and plugged it in my monitors. Apart from graphics, the laptop was measurably faster on all accounts.

[boringg]

Fair enough but theres also a 3 year gap on those machines you are comparing.

[folkrav]

The only machines I've compared were my old gaming rig (with various parts bought or upgraded anywhere between 2009 to 2012-13) and my 2017 laptop. Not sure where that 3 years come from, maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[astrange]

It's not like Intel's products have gotten any faster in 3 years.

[folkrav]

I'm getting the feeling the first gen M1's was about dipping their toes, just launching the line and getting people ready for the transition. There are still rough edges, very popular pieces of software still haven't been ported over, and they definitely have some limitations (you're not the first I hear talk about issues with multiple external monitors, IIRC). I'm fairly certain that first generation was more about getting the I-don't-mind-tinkering early adopter types on board, then following up with more "complete" products next time around.

[brokenmachine]

And I can presume that Apple mentioned all of that in the keynote?? They did, right?

[folkrav]

I mean, is every company required to tell you every single line of their tactical decisions? They presented a product, that product has specifications. As a customer you're free to check out the specifications, and buy the product or not based on these specifications meeting your requirements or not. Software not being ready was a given, it's literally a new architecture, it's hardly the first time this happens in computing history, and definitely not the first time for Apple. What's the problem here, what did you expect them to say in said keynote?

[brokenmachine]

Obviously I was being facetious.

I was making a point that I'm sure they said that it's already the best laptop made ever, not just dipping their toes in with a rough around the edges product only for early adopters who don't mind broken stuff.

[mrtksn]

Sound like a Desktop Linux experience. I know, very controversial to say it here but if you think about it, through the years using desktop Linux meant that you will have a lot of cool stuff alongside with a dealbreaker like a monitor not working properly or a flashdrive causing kernel error.

How long it has been since M1 introduction? 4 months?

I recall the story about Microsoft buying all the available software out there and testing it one by one on the new version of windows and creating workarounds for specific versions of specific software. On the linux side of the things this never happened.

I doubt that Apple is doing it too but it looks like the developers are doing it instead. Probably most of the stuff will iron out within the "2 years of transition period" which we are at about %15.

The stuff that doesn't iron out will simply get obsolete and replaced. Why? Because Apple means "I have better things to do than dealing with this gadget and I am prepared to pay for if you can help me not deal with it".

Whatever software or hardware is broken is some competitors opportunity. Oh, and Rossman has his own agenda. That's why he doesn't care, he will care if there's a scandal or something.

[folkrav]

> I recall the story about Microsoft buying all the available software out there and testing it one by one on the new version of windows and creating workarounds for specific versions of specific software. On the linux side of the things this never happened.

Considering 90% of Linux contributors are paid by Red Hat/IBM/Intel/Linaro/SUSE/Samsung and some I'm forgetting, not that surprising that the focus isn't particularly on the Linux desktop. As for the desktop, AFAIK the only desktop environment with any sort corporate backing is GNOME, so I don't even know how "Linux" could even buy all software and test it out.

> Rossman

Well of course he has his own agenda - which he quite literally spells out pretty clearly every time he has a chance to do so, IMHO. We all have an agenda, what's important is interest and disclosure.

[addaon]

A computer is a device for running software. A particular implementation of a computer can be so flawed that it's unpleasant to use, regardless of the software; but it can never be so perfect that it overcomes that it doesn't run the software you want to run. If your preferred OS and software don't run on the system, you're not going to be happy with it -- I think that's what people mean when they say you're not the target audience. When people say that Apple builds high quality systems (which I agree with), I interpret that as meaning that the systems flaws, such as they are, do not interfere significantly with the overall goal of running the desired software.

[smoldesu]

I suppose that's a pretty level-headed way of looking at it. My frustrations with MacOS mostly come down to death by a thousand papercuts. Perhaps my biggest mistake was assuming that Homebrew could replace a package manager like apt or pacman, which I've quickly come to realize is not the case. After that, I realized that my mistake was trying to make my Mac as Linux-esque as possible.

[hctaw]

I wouldn't have expected an Apple device of the last generation to fit your needs, let alone the new ones. Why did you buy the computer?

[grecy]

> "it's faster than the last computer Apple made"

While true, I don't think that alone tells the whole story. It's worth adding that it gets about double the battery life of the last computer Apple made. It's about $1000 less than the last computer Apple made and it's so much quieter it can't really be compared.

When judged on the metrics that really matter to end users, it's a significant improvement from "the last computer Apple made".

[smoldesu]

Well, I think that's the whole point of the remark. If we're going to continue to use Apple as a benchmark for Apple, then yes, they will improve year-over-year. The rhetoric behind the sentiment is that we should give up trying to compare Apple to x because their users will never hold them to those standards. If Apple releases a perfect laptop next year with replaceable components, an SD card slot and a magic smartcard reader, the community will parade and say "I told you so" rather than wondering why they let Apple get away with it for so long in the first place.

[rapind]

You're not alone. There's a support thread with 31 pages (that continues to grow) about external display issues affecting all M1 macs (Mac Mini too... which requires an external display!). https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252174979?page=31

[jmisavage]

There are some known issues involving ultra widescreen monitors and color issues that are suppose to be fixed in the next release.

This may help you get multiple monitors running https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/24/m1-macs-able-to-run-six...

[lostmsu]

Exactly same for me.

I am looking with wolf's eyes at the M1 and A14X performance. Desperately want it... in my Android phone, where I can install Firefox with uBlock Origin, and in my Windows laptop, that has a touchscreen and has no problems connecting external displays.

[brokenmachine]

Me too. I will never buy a Mac, but I'm hoping the good things about M1 will influence the industry for PCs that I would actually pay for.

A fanless laptop would be great.

[sys_64738]

Get a Display Link USB graphics dongle for USB port. This works seriously well.

[smoldesu]

I'll look into it, is it capable of driving 1440p@144hz?

[rvz]

> I can't use my OS of choice on it, I can't use my software of choice on it, I can't upgrade or fix anything on it, and I can't trust the swap to not shred the SSD.

It is just as locked in like an iPhone.

When at least one component of that computer is ruined, as you said it can't be simply swapped out and it time for a trip to the Apple Store if you're using it for the long term. If the SSD in the M1 is dead for some reason, you might as well buy the same model again but with your data lost.

> Am I missing something here? Time and time again I hear people say "you're not the target audience", and I'm getting the impression they're right.

It's true. It's for those who really love the Apple ecosystem and don't care about computers or opening them up. Right now the early adopters are realising the limits of the first generation M1 Macs.

Are they show-stoppers? Not for some of the casual users using Slack, Zoom, Google Docs, Word, Chrome and their favourite email client and users that aren't developers or professional creators but for those working in those fields will probably run into more 'incompatible software' complaints and using unstable workarounds.

[sundaeofshock]

> If the SSD in the M1 is dead for some reason, you might as well buy the same model again but with your data lost. <

Really? I would imagine that professional creators and developers would know enough to back-up their data.

[smoldesu]

Even still, that's not a fix for the machines that are broken. I'm more disturbed by the fact that my Macbook would become a unibody paperweight, the data is the easiest part to replace.

[yjftsjthsd-h]

> It is just as locked in like an iPhone.

Software-wise, it's a lot less locked-in than an iPhone - there aren't technical measures preventing a user from running an arbitrary OS or programs from non-Apple sources. (There is a temporary gap while people write drivers, but Apple's not stopping them, just not actively helping)