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by dagmx 1936 days ago
How many left wing dictators have there been?
4 comments

Stalin and Pol Pot are good examples.
Again, this only applies if we blindly use the cold war association that communism is a left wing ideal, without actually looking at the policy of the people.

The reality is that communism as a movement spans a wide political range, and both Stalin and Pol Pot had diverged significantly from any form of leftist Marxism in their hunt for power.

Even stalinist supporters decry Pol Pot https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/pol/khmerrouge.html

Looking at simple party names is a red herring at best. It's best to look at the policy choices of the dictators in question.

Hundreds. Stalin. Hitler. Mao. The list of genocides is longer than my arm.
This is a very interesting world view you have where Hitler is left wing. I think that alone scuppers any substance to your argument.

Stalin and Mao would only be left wing if you prescribe to the thought that communism by nature must only be left wing. I assume your train of thought on Hitler is similar because you're likely equating the socialist word in the Nazi party to left wing socialism.

At best this is dishonest and ignoring actual policy.

Isn't the flipside of that coin that leftism is more or less just plain good and ceases to be leftism the moment it deviates from what we think of as good, ie. basically a No True Scotsman?

One reason the Marxist kind of thought pattern is dangerous is because of something like that. The ideas in and of themselves can sound good and appealing - who wants poor people to live in squalor and so on? But if we look at what natural and sexual selection ingrains in biological life - it is by necessity kin-preferring, competitive and in non-eusocial social creatures, status seeking, for example. Things that prefer non-kin and don't compete just die out.

In that light, a sound philosophy would understand that those things can't be eradicated by human will, take the impulses and hone something constructive out of them. But Marxist thought is rationalist in the sense that it thinks doctrine and reason can mold human nature to whatever shape, and then achieve their utopistic ends. That, of course, cannot happen because we're built from competitive, kin-preferring, status-seeking genes, not utopistic ones. Marxism is incompatible with biological life, and to get biological life to comply for any length of time, it must be forced constantly, or the utopian society degrade into tyranny, which has thus far happened every single time these things have been tried. But it's never done properly, so we should try again.

I'm hardly invoking any sort of no true Scotsman fallacy.

I'm asking for people to delve into the so called left wing policy of the people they're claiming are left wing dictators.

So far people have only been listing people by their party names. Which would mean that North Korea is a bastion of democracy. I'm asking for substance to back up their assertions.

As a german, I can definitly tell you that Hitler was not left wing. There is no overlap in the political views at all. (Something I can not say about germany's far right.)
In that case, as a German expert here, can you correct leereeves' comment, please? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26313411
There you go: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26314601

I have to add that "no overlap at all", may not be correct, as those points were shared by different political spectrums in the history. The point is: The core idea, is completly different.

Vast majority of them, especially if you compare by the body count.
Can you list them and their body counts + Policies that caused those deaths?
Fortunately someone has already done so. It's far from a complete list, but it's enough to prove the point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...

Where exactly is the list by numbers across the board? Unless you believe only community regimes kill.
Plenty? Have you ever heard about the XX century? Bolsheviks? Fidel Castro?
I'm not saying there are none. I'm raising the point that there's been quite a lot more right wing dictatorships than left wing through history.