[federona]

> The truth is an ideal and when we pursue that ideal, things go well. When we stop pursuing it, we get "post-journalism".

My response to that is that this idea is subterfuge for resolving complicating political problems with propaganda rather than by proper system design. We are in this situation, because propaganda has lost its power over the masses after 100 years. We need better ways to resolve problems that appealing to ideals while a select elite push their agenda on the people who accept it unquestioningly. In many ways our methods of dealing with this has been akin to religion, which also appeals to religious ideals to gloss over real issues and silence them.

[mc32]

I don't think propaganda has lost its power. To me its more powerful than ever. For a different example, look at advertising. It as well is more successful than ever despite people knowing full well what it is, how it works and how it affects them.

[slibhb]

The notion that we can replace ideals with "proper systems design" is called Positivism. We've tried it, and variants like Marxism. None of them work.

Humans are limited animals. Enlightenment ideals, which are (yes) secularized religions concepts, are the best we've been able to do so far. Maybe at some point in the future we'll be able to do better but I'm not holding my breath.

[federona]

> None of them work.

Except when some humans which at the time were more backwards than the leaders of the world tried, they were simply shut down using propaganda and force. So as to deem what they were attempting to do completely feeble... mostly due to them being against this secular religion. It was in many ways a religious war in idealized secular terms. Therefore I would argue that no actual attempt has been made, because the power structure likes it this way. Their secular religious clergy does well for themselves in it and they don't want revolutions to change it. Not that it can't be done. No one has been allowed to actually try in good faith.