[jjsylvestre]

This is an excellent question. For narrow body aircraft we've studied, they require high propulsive power during the takeoff and climb phases, and a fraction of the peak propulsive power during the cruise phase. One aircraft we looked at required 30-35MW during takeoff and ~10MW during cruise.

So, thrust power and system level power density (kW/kg) are critical during takeoff/climb and cruise efficiency is important for minimizing energy consumption.

Like Audunw mentions, its very application dependent as well. It all boils down to the propulsion system mass fraction. For lower PSMF, efficiency matters more once you are above a certain power density. For higher PSMF, power density matters more. There is an optimal balance of efficiency vs. specific power for every aircraft. We can "tune" our technology relatively easily depending on what that balance is to maximize range.

I'll let my cofounder Max chime in since he does a lot of vehicle-level architecture and optimization. He's been doing some studies for rotorcraft and planes to look at how specific power and efficiency impact range/endurance so I'm sure he can expand on my answer a bit.

[Robotbeat]

The other part is that there's a straightforward trade-off between specific power and efficiency. Two motors on the same shaft can each be run at half the current, and since power loss due to resistance is: P=I^2*R, your losses due to resistance would halve. (There are, of course, other loss mechanisms.)

So it's good to start out with a really high specific power because you can often trade that back for efficiency.

[usrusr]

But that big max/cruise delta disappears as soon as you ditch the wings and go 'copter, which seem to dominate all use cases where electric is anywhere close to viable.

Where motors excelling in W/g could absolutely shine is the still empty area of hybrid planes that downsize their combustive propulsion to cruise requirements and carry batteries only for those short periods of peak power demand.

[sitkack]

Would you use a generator or a directly connected ICE?

[usrusr]

Certainly not a generator, at least not unless there was some miracle fuel cell fuel. The "electric boost" would need to be completely idle most of the flight (which creates some interesting challenges regarding conversion of electric torque to air movement).

[sitkack]

This is a fascinating analysis of hybrid electric planes

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13272-017-0272-1

I think the idea is worth exploring. Esp with superconductors an electric powertrain could have lower losses than mechanical.

[usrusr]

Oh, that's sobering. All the referenced modeling seems to start with hypothetical batteries many times lighter than we have, and even then they only give minor emissions reduction hardly beyond what we are used to from e.g. succeeding generations of 737. And only under the assumption that the electricity used is completely emission-free.

And why even bother modeling constant power split? You might just as well linearly interpolate between conventional and an all-electric design and call it a day. Everything interesting about hybrid propulsion happens when the ratio is varied with power demand.

What's interesting is how much mass they account on the electric side in addition to the battery. This kind of validates H3X.

[mercurywells]

> One aircraft we looked at required 30-35MW during takeoff and ~10MW during cruise.

Do you envision some airframes to include assisted take-off technology? (JATO and the like, even catapults)

[elihu]

A simpler alternative could be to just have an electrified runway. The plane draws power from power rails embedded in a runway, or something like that. So, it doesn't switch to batteries until it's in the air.

You could even have a long cable that hangs behind the plane and keeps an electrical connection until you're a few hundred feet up. (I'm picturing it connected to something like a slot-car that travels in an electrified track that could extend a mile or so past the end of the runway.) When you get to the end of the track, the cable (which could probably belong to the airport rather than be part of the plane) releases from the plane.

(This would help marginally with range, but doesn't really help with power density, unless you're limited by the voltage and current available from the batteries rather than the power of the motor.)

I keep wondering if there could be a way to re-charge in flight so that battery range/weight wasn't such an issue, but that's a hard problem.

[outworlder]

As a rule, whenever one feels tempted to say "just do <x>", it's time to wait and think. Because, if it's "just" about doing something, why isn't it being done already?

In this case: let's say it's feasible to retrofit runways to use this system (it probably isn't) and look at a few issues.

For instance: "the cable releases from the plane". No system is fail safe. What happens if the cable does NOT release from the plane? What happens if it snags during the takeoff roll? What happens when there's wind gusts?

If there's no cable, and it's "just" a rail, presumably the plane is taking off aligned to the rail. What happens if the alignment is off? Or is the 'rail' supposed to keep the plane straight? If so, what about the force distribution on the plane's landing gears or (if a specialized system is installed), in the fuselage?

So say you have such a system and everything has been retrofit. What happens if there's an issue with the land-based generator during the take off roll? Would the aircraft still have enough power to perform the take-off from the onboard batteries? If so, this is just about range and the system would never be installed, as aircraft would be certified with the lower range instead. If not, it's a disaster in the making.

> I keep wondering if there could be a way to re-charge in flight so that battery range/weight wasn't such an issue, but that's a hard problem.

There isn't unless you can transfer power from elsewhere. In-flight "refueling" from another plane is out of the question. You are essentially left with beamed power from ground stations (or orbital if we are really forward thinking). That might theoretically be feasible (planes don't have a very large surface area so the power delivery system would probably look like a weapon and mostly behave like one). Engineering it is another matter, not to mention practicality.

[sokoloff]

We’ve been launching airplanes with steam catapults for many decades, albeit in an environment where we’re willing to take more risks than to go see Grandma, but many of the catapult concerns are areas where we have decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of successful cat shots.

[martyvis]

But the catapult isn't for saving on energy that needs to be carried on the aircraft. It's simply that you can't build engines and propulsion systems on a plane with the desired takeoff weight when you have as short a runway as you do on an aircraft carrier

[sokoloff]

Regardless of the underlying driver to implement it, we've solved some of the concerns that GP mentions for ground-assist launches, so there is a body of experience/work we can easily build upon.

[sitkack]

It is the same thing. The high power for takeoff shortens the runway from 7km to 400m.

We could do the same thing with cars and equip them with a super aerodynamic body and a 7kw engine, it could do 80kph.

[elihu]

> As a rule, whenever one feels tempted to say "just do <x>", it's time to wait and think. Because, if it's "just" about doing something, why isn't it being done already?

In this case, the simplest counter to that question is just that electric aircraft barely even exist at this stage, due to battery weight issues.

That isn't to say this is a great idea (a small boost in range probably isn't worth the additional complexity), but we just don't know at this point what electric aircraft will be like down the road when they're more common and people have figured out what works and what doesn't.

> For instance: "the cable releases from the plane". No system is fail safe. What happens if the cable does NOT release from the plane? What happens if it snags during the takeoff roll? What happens when there's wind gusts?

We already have this figured out for gliders and tow planes, and that's a cable designed to withstand the full thrust of the puller plane without breaking. A power cable can be designed to disconnect if it's yanked too hard. It can also be made to just plain break if it snags.

> So say you have such a system and everything has been retrofit. What happens if there's an issue with the land-based generator during the take off roll? Would the aircraft still have enough power to perform the take-off from the onboard batteries? If so, this is just about range and the system would never be installed, as aircraft would be certified with the lower range instead. If not, it's a disaster in the making.

I'm assuming the plane has batteries and intends to go somewhere. If it has enough batteries to actually go anywhere useful, it should have more than enough batteries to circle around and land immediately if there's a problem with the power cable. This is no problem. Gas planes generally should be prepared to emergency-land at any point during takeoff and ascent (in a field if necessary) in case of complete engine failure, and this would just be more of an "oh, I guess we have a couple minutes less range than I thought I was going to have, and I'll have to land sooner" sort of situation.

> There isn't unless you can transfer power from elsewhere. In-flight "refueling" from another plane is out of the question.

It's not out-of-the-question in the sense that we couldn't do it if we wanted to, it's just incredibly inconvenient and probably not a problem that's worth trying to solve with current technology because the result wouldn't be useful. In-air refueling currently exists with gas planes, and it could be done with electric aircraft with a power cord instead of a fuel tube. It wouldn't be energy efficient and the tanker would probably have to be gas-powered, so it doesn't make sense environmentally. It would also take a very long time to recharge, given current battery technology. You'd be better off just flying a gas plane that has ten times the range or so to begin with.

Alternatively, you could swap batteries mid-air, but how would that even work?

Like I said, transferring energy to in-flight aircraft would be best, but I'm not aware of a way to do it that would be practical (i.e. doesn't involve technology we don't have, or building megastructures across the landscape, or wasting energy in other ways). Maybe we'll get the energy density of batteries up high enough that it doesn't matter before we figure out high-power long-distance wireless energy transfer. Or maybe we'll be using liquid fuel in planes indefinitely. For right now I think figuring out a sustainable way to make liquid fuel from electricity is probably the easiest route, if we're just trying to get off of fossil fuels for aviation in the short term.

[quickthrowman]

> You could even have a long cable that hangs behind the plane and keeps an electrical connection until you're a few hundred feet up.

I can assure you this will never ever happen. It’s wildly impractical, improbable, and sounds extremely unsafe. Sure, it’s theoretically possible, but that’s about it.

The NFPA is not going to add a code section in the NEC for hundreds of feet long live electrical conductors being pulled into the air by a plane and then disconnected in mid-air, and the FAA isn’t going to allow it either.

[elihu]

Tow planes and gliders routinely fly with a disconnecting cable between two aircraft, and that seems at least as impractical and unsafe (or it would if you were proposing it as a new idea). Though maybe that's the sort of thing that's "grandfathered in" from earlier, more permissive days of experimental aviation.

I think the strongest argument against using a power cable during takeoff is just that it's not worth the effort and complexity just for a slight increase in range, except in rare situations or planes that normally make very short flights and don't want to be weighed down with extra batteries (like the aforementioned glider tow planes).

[outworlder]

> Tow planes and gliders routinely fly with a disconnecting cable between two aircraft

This is true. However, the cable is not carrying KW or megawatts of electricity, it's just there for tension, to transfer forces from something else to get the glider airborne.

Technically, you don't even need the tow plane, some places perform winch launches (or car launches!) exclusively. This is very common where general aviation is not as common.

Should the cable not detach (extremely rare), it can be cut at the other end. Cutting a live cable should be much more interesting. Other issues, the glider can release it. The glider will most likely be fine, even if the flight is now cut short.

Gliders are very light and still the cable weights a lot. That's probably the limit of what's practical. There are some gliders with electric motors, they don't need all that much power, by definition. Some can even self-launch.

[quickthrowman]

> Tow planes and gliders routinely fly with a disconnecting cable between two aircraft, and that seems at least as impractical and unsafe (or it would if you were proposing it as a new idea). Though maybe that's the sort of thing that's "grandfathered in" from earlier, more permissive days of experimental aviation.

A tow cable does not have live electrical conductors in it.

[worik]

They allowed 737 MAX 8, so maybe, who knows?

[cjbprime]

Or for an even simpler alternative, just get towed into the air as motorgliders are (the ones with sustaining motors but not auto-takeoff).

I wonder if this tech might be better suited to self-launching motorgliders than GA.

[5600]

It certainly seems like something that will be towed.

[K0balt]

None of the things you mention would have a significant effect on range, and all could be replaced with a nominal increase in runway length. If an aircraft cannot produce sufficient power to take off, it cannot produce sufficient power to climb.... And to be efficient, it must climb as high as possible, ideally to 30k feet or more. You are talking about the first 30 seconds... But it needs to keep it up for 30 minutes.

Take off assists are for ultradshort runways.

[car]

Or how about a large battery pack that drops back to the ground after take off, eliminating it’s weight from the airframe?

[mliben]

I think most forms of assisted takeoff technology would reduce electrical power requirements for takeoff, but not put much of a dent in the climb power (unless you can catapult/ JATO all the way up to cruising altitude, which would be challenging). Since climb power is still significantly higher than cruise power, and is effectively thermal steady state for these components (10-20min), it would still drive the propulsion system sizing.

[throwawayboise]

You still need enough reserve power at the end of a flight to do a rejected landing/go around, or you won't get certified. If you are relying on some kind of catapult, rail gun, or rocket assist to take off, not sure how that happens.

[sokoloff]

An early rejected landing still requires less power than a static takeoff, so you could get by with a mix of craft and assistive power.

[hbrav]

You could have another aircraft tow you, like gliders sometimes do. Doesn't seem terribly practical though.

[omgwtfbyobbq]

That could be a great use case for lighter/smaller electric motors, since a tow plane could take off, assist with takeoff, turn around and land, charge, and repeat. The tow plane wouldn't need as large of a battery pack, but having good power to weight for towing other plants to whatever altitude is very important.

[mchusma]

I feel like this is something that drones/100% automated ops can really help with.

Power satellites (basically giant solar arrays transmitting power) are also interesting (https://www.geekwire.com/2020/space-force-will-test-solar-po...).

We could have these complex automated systems to make electric aircraft much more viable, which is cool in theory.

[outworlder]

Power satellites are interesting. But here's the thing:

For most aircraft (except some gliders), covering them fully with solar panels is not even close to the power they need in cruise, correct?

So a power satellite would have to generate _at least_ the same W/m2 as the sun (around 1.4kw/m2( just to break even with a solar panel, but most likely much, much more, by orders of magnitude.

For a 747, I've seen figures from 90 MW to almost 200MW. If the receivers were at the wings only, that would be almost 6MW per square meter if you take the lower figure.

For a target as small as a plane, this would look like an energy weapon from science fiction.

Even something like this would not cut it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIRACL

For general aircraft the numbers look better. Then again, they are much smaller.

I can't wait for power satellites to be deployed, but they will mostly be servicing ground stations.

[mliben]

Not exactly what Talyn Air is doing, but along the same lines- separating out the "lift/climb" vehicle from the "cruise" vehicle. It can actually be a very compelling design!