[dmje]

Argh. My dream is that one day people will understand that a really large chunk (probably the vast majority) of piss-ripping found in humour isn't actually racist or misogynistic but is actually the complete opposite in making a statement about the stupidity of the protagonists' racism or misogyny.

Fawlty Towers 6th episode "The Germans" is a classic case in point. The entire premise of the episode was not "Germans are stupid" but "the idiot who is xenophobic who is being horrible to Germans is stupid". I don't know anyone - least of all any Germans - who are in the slightest bit offended by this. It's one example, but it happens time and time again. Literally the only people actually being offended are - who...?

Anyway. Sigh.

[mumblemumble]

So, having been an avid watcher of both The Muppet Show and Fawlty Towers, it seems to me that you have drawn a selective analogy. Both shows were sometimes deliberately taking the piss. Other times, they were guilty of thoughtlessly repeating the same kinds of stereotypes. It happens. It happened a lot in the 70s. It still happens a lot. Comedy is a dangerous line of work.

Things like this are never cut-and-dried. There is room for both celebrating the good stuff and criticizing the less-good stuff, even within a single creative work.

[audunw]

I checked out the list that someone compiled on Reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/Muppets/comments/lnwse2/muppet_show...

And I had to look up this one:

> Beverly Sills: Most likely for the Chinese Gorillla Muppet.

Yeah, that one was pretty bad. I think a disclaimer is appropriate.

I get what you're saying. There are casualties in this effort to contextualize or remove the humor of previous decades. I totally agree about the Fawlty Tower episode. But I think it's easier to have simple rules than to try to evaluate these things on a case-by-case basis. Humor is subjective after all.

> Literally the only people actually being offended are - who...?

It's not really about being offended though is it? The ones being offended and actually complaining is just the tip of the iceberg.

This kind of humor can create attitudes that can be a constant pain in the side for certain groups of people. I mean, you've still got shit like this going on today : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc1GhI1Dwyc

How would you approach this problem?

> probably the vast majority

Ugh, naw, not at that time if you ask me. Most comedians are not as smart and tactful as John Cleese. He was ahead of his time in many ways.

You can still get away with quite stereotypical humor today if you frame it correctly, and I think most comedians today are more clever about it. They're not all smarter now, there's just a better culture around it.

There was a show in Norway that was pulled from streaming because an actor was using "blackface". But that comedian/actor has a thing about playing lots of different characters (men, women, older, younger, etc), and in that case he just happened to portray a vaguely middle-eastern character. There was a big counter-reaction, particularly from immigrants saying that this wasn't offensive to them. And the show was put back online, with a disclaimer. So I think it shows that there is course-correction when the humor isn't actually in bad taste.

[mschuster91]

> Literally the only people actually being offended are - who...?

Those who have been the target of persecution, slavery, police and other systemic discrimination up to outright genocides for hundreds to thousands of years.

It's not that hard to have fun without having to step on other people's toes, or to recognize that what was acceptable 50 years ago is not acceptable today, because society has progressed.

[prepend]

What Germans have been the target of persecution, slavery, etc?

Isn’t part of the joke that Germans are being discriminated by an innkeeper? And it’s the innkeeper who is in the wrong.

Note of course German Jews and other subpopulations were horribly persecuted in the Holocaust. If this episode targeted those subpopulations then there is a real case.

[mschuster91]

That's the point of what I was saying: Yes, shitty jokes about Germans or Swedes are shitty.

But we Germans don't care or complain because we Germans haven't been the target of relentless, historical injustice. For persons of color, for Jews, for Sinti/Roma the situation is different - every time some "comedian" uses their plight for cheap laughs, it's yet another slap in the face.