[jules]

That's the same straw-man I already answered. I repeat, when you copy and distribute, you don't rid the maker of the recipe from the ability to make wine, you rid him of the ability to sell the recipe.

I can see what you're getting at with natural order. You are saying that he didn't have the ability to sell his recipe in the first place, because in a 'natural world' (i.e. without special enforcement by the government) he wouldn't be able to do that in the first place.

What do you think the world was like centuries ago? If I'm stronger than you, I can take your axe. THAT is the natural world. You could argue that that's bad, since previously he owned the axe and now he doesn't. In the same way that you argue that the recipe maker didn't have the ability to sell his recipe in the first place without law enforcement, I argue that the axe wasn't his in the first place without law enforcement. He never really had this axe, because I was always strong enough to take it from him.

But all of this is completely beside the point. We don't make laws because they are right or wrong. We make laws from an utilitarian perspective: do they improve the world? If you want to successfully argue against copyright law, you have to argue that these laws make the world a worse place.

[pyre]

  > you rid him of the ability to sell the recipe.

Copyright controls the ability to copy/distribute. It says nothing about selling. Are you going to tell me that if I copy a movie, I've deprived Hollywood of the ability to sell that movie? Are they not still able to sell DVDs in parallel with the operation of The Pirate Bay? "rid him of the ability to sell" seems rather strong language for an issue that's more nuanced that you seem to want to admit to.

[jules]

Selling is the most important intended use case for copy right, just like using is the most important intended use case for property right.

If you copy and distribute a movie, then yes you are depriving Hollywood of some of its ability to sell the movie. Of course not all of it, just like I don't rid you of your use of your car if I steal it for one day and then put it back.