[southerntofu]

What's wrong with using stolen hardware? I mean we could argue stealing is wrong, in which case we'd have to take a look at why people are stealing and from whom (partitioning of wealth) so we can find solutions.

If we're not looking at the root of the problem, then we're just complicating legitimate use cases. Preventing theft is only the official argument, but it doesn't stand any form of scrutiny: as long as there's inequality (i.e. incentives to expropriate people who have too much, to serve people who have too little) there will be theft.

The truth behind iCloud lock is Apple has been involved in mafia-style dealings with national mobile phone operators (which involved promises/contracts to sell millions of units), inundating the market with operator-sponsored iPhones, and they really don't want a second-hand market at all because they are a luxury brand.

[simonh]

Most victims of crime are also socially disadvantaged, so enough with the Robin Hood crap. Theft is also strongly associated with violence, intimidation and mental stress on the victims. Promoting or justifying crimes in your comments here is reckless and irresponsible.

If someone wants to sell a device second hand it's pretty easy to voluntarily wipe your device. Apple devices have very long lives, receive software updates for much longer than competing devices and keep their second hand value very well and so make excellent and very economical second hand devices. Contrary to your claims of Apple not wanting a second hand market, they support the device wiping process and even have a trade in program that channels refurbished iPhones to 3rd world countries.

If you really do care about the environment and supply chain ethics, you'll also be happy to know Apple get the highest score of any of the big tech companies from Greenpeace. In fact the only tech company at all that beats them is Fairphone, but since they get only 2 years of updates I think Greenpeace doesn't sufficiently take into account device longevity.

[southerntofu]

> Most victims of crime are also socially disadvantaged

True in most cases, but not when it comes to owning a recent iPhone. Millions of people struggle for eating decently, and most of these folks are certainly not spending >500€ on a phone.

What may not have been clear in my original comment is most users who have a stolen device don't have knowledge of it, and are not complicit in it. So why do they have to be the ones paying the price?

> If someone wants to sell a device second hand it's pretty easy to voluntarily wipe your device.

In my experience, it's not uncommon that neighbors seek support because a relative offered them their old phone willingly but are far away and unable to remember their password over the phone. Sometimes, it's a phone/account they had not used in years. I've encountered this situation at least twice in the past year, and i'm not even working in a computer/phone shop.

> Fairphone, but since they get only 2 years of updates I think Greenpeace doesn't sufficiently take into account device longevity

Fairphone only supports updates for 2 years, but there's a growing ecosystems of distros targeting the Fairphones (LineageOS, /e/, PostmarketOS), while Apple have been condemned for pushing updates that made iPhones slower (to encourage them buying new ones).

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724

[Toutouxc]

> So why do they have to be the ones paying the price?

What price?

The original price of the device? Because we all do.

Or the price of having to buy a different machine than the $200 MacBook from the shady person online which came without the original box, warranty or charger? For the same reason, and also because they're stupid.

[southerntofu]

> What price?

The price of having to pay a shady black market of "icloud unlocker" (usually through legit phone stores) to unlock of phone they have already paid for in good faith.

> the $200 MacBook from the shady person online

It's not just an online thing, and the person doesn't have to be shady (they're usually just a middleperson who have little clue). You can find questionable hardware in most open markets and second-hand shops.

> without the original box, warranty or charger?

Most second-hand hardware i purchase from legit sources comes with at least two of those missing (when not three) out of three.

> also because they're stupid.

I agree it's stupid to purchase a device you have no idea how to access/use/unlock. But i strongly disagree that good-faith people, who genuinely paid for an Apple device (after being advertised into thinking they need one), should suffer because of a lack of judgement on their part.

[simonh]

There’s no way to slice out crime against owners of a ‘recent iPhone’ as being acceptable, crime doesn’t work like that. There’s no way you can know when buying a stolen phone who it was taken from but disproportionately they come form people who can least afford to lose them.

There are over a billion iOS devices active right now, are all of those people rich exploiters who deserve to have their phones stolen? What your saying isn’t anti-capitalist, it’s advocating disproportionate oppression of the most vulnerable in society and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

How dare you come here, advocate crime and criticise owners of devices with the highest recyclability, lowest ecological impact and longest device lifetimes in the industry on moral grounds.

I’m sure your perfectly aware of what the purpose of those software updates were, to extend device lifetimes when batteries start to fail, but you’re perfectly prepared to betray your ecological ideals which should be in favour of this in order to score points. It’s absolutely disgraceful. These arguments might work against people unaware of the facts, but you’re not going to get away with this disingenuous claptrap here.

[southerntofu]

Why downvote? Please argue with facts. Although i understand defending vendor lock-in, ecological damage, and forced sales is a hard sell... All the more when trying to protect from criticism a corporation making billions on the backs of exploited children in mines & factories.

[jaywalk]

Your arguments are 100% nonsense and 0% facts, so most people will see it as a waste of time to try and have a discussion with you.

[southerntofu]

> The truth behind iCloud lock is Apple has been involved in mafia-style dealings with national mobile phone operators (which involved promises/contracts to sell millions of units), inundating the market with operator-sponsored iPhones, and they really don't want a second-hand market at all because they are a luxury brand.

Apple investigated for "planned" obsolescence by the French government: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42615378 (they have also settled for 500M$ in a previous case)

Apple was condemned and fined for illegal clauses in France in contracts with national cellphone operators (i believe the 4 of them):

https://www.universfreebox.com/article/34513/Apple-accuse-d-...

Specifically, they were condemned for:

- forcing the operator to buy a minimum amount of devices over 3 years - preventing the operator from defining target prices - forcing the operator to give funds to a marketing agency affiliated to Apple - forcing the operator to finance the marketing of iPhones in store, mandating a minimal marketing budget - enabling Apple to use the trademarks of the operator, but not the other way around - imposes strict conditions for device orders, but lifts any responsibility on Apple's side - forces the operator to financially support device repairs - gives Apple the right to break said contract, without respecting legal delays - enables Apple to use patents from the operator

Some of this was covered on public television by "Cash Investigation", so that was quite a public outcry. But this is only for France, and i'm assuming such mafia-like practices are common in other countries, as they are common in different branches of industry (not just IT, where well-known example include Microsoft and Intel).

About the consequences for the environment and (lack of) recycling of electronic waste:

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-environmental-pitfalls-at-the-... https://techhq.com/2020/12/right-to-repair-combating-techs-d... https://www.vox.com/2017/11/8/16621512/where-does-my-smartph...

About Apple not wanting a second hand market, i obviously meant a second hand market they do not control. They do have certified programs for second hard hardware. Sorry if that was not clear.

I hope i've provided enough evidence of the facts i was presenting. Please let me know if that's not the case.

[jaywalk]

See, you keep saying "second-hand market" when you're really referring to stolen devices.

For legitimate second-hand sales, Apple even has a page on their website to explain how to check for activation lock before buying a phone, and how to disable it before it's sold or given away: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201365

So just stop with your crap. You believe you're some kind of Robinhood or whatever, and want to be able to steal shit without consequence. Guess what, the vast majority of people don't want their shit stolen and are happy that Apple makes your "job" harder.

[southerntofu]

> See, you keep saying "second-hand market" when you're really referring to stolen devices.

No, i'm refering to the actual second-hand market, eg. second-hand stores and open markets, where a lot of less-privileged folks do their shopping anyway. In there, stolen hardware represents a tiny minority of the tons of devices, but it's still a reality.

Even hardware donated in good faith is sometimes locked. Sometimes, it's possible to find the original owner and have them unlock their device. Sometimes, this person who gave away an old phone to a local association, a "ressourcerie" or sold it for a very low price to a second-hand shop cannot be found again.

Sometimes, you find them but they have forgotten the code to a device they haven't used in years. When it's not an iPhone (think laptop), we just setup a new OS and the device is good to go for another few years. When it's an iPhone, we're left with a brick.

> So just stop with your crap. (...) Apple makes your "job" harder.

This kind of personal attack is not okay. You are assuming things that are entirely untrue based on my political opinions ("property is theft"). I do not sell anything, and i certainly do not steal iPhones, whether for money or for fun. i am a free-software person and i have avoided apple for years because of the reasons we are discussing in this thread. No economic incentives in it for me, i'm just criticizing Apple for being user-hostile, in a way that particularly affect the poorest people who rely on second-hand devices because they can't afford brand new ones.