[lupire]

This isn't a webtech thing. Look at Superfund as one of many examples of the conventional wisdom that business winnby cheating. Most theft in USA is wage theft by employers. Corporations are constantly getting caught breaking the law and not getting punished, defrauding customers or polluting the environment. Sports stadiums being built my governments and given away to corporations.

[missedthecue]

"Most theft in USA is wage theft by employers"

This is something I hear repeated ad infinitum on the net, but has a calculation ever been done the other way? That is, workers stealing from employers by deliberately clocking out early/late, or by goofing off on HN while on the clock. I would hazard a guess that this number is an order of magnitude greater than seedy business owners short changing their staff.

[capableweb]

Yes, calculations have been done. Search for "wage theft" and there is bunch of research about this. The US is not alone in this and it's also not a new problem, it's been like this for a while now.

Here's a good starting point: https://www.epi.org/publication/epidemic-wage-theft-costing-...

> If these findings in New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are generalizable to the rest of the U.S. low-wage workforce of 30 million, wage theft is costing workers more than $50 billion a year.

> All of the robberies, burglaries, larcenies, and motor vehicle thefts in the nation cost their victims less than $14 billion in 2012, according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports

> in the United States in 2012, there were 292,074 robberies of all kinds, including bank robberies, residential robberies, convenience store and gas station robberies, and street robberies.3 The total value of the property taken in those crimes was $340,850,358

Worth noting that that report is from 2012. Things are surely worse now.

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. I'm not sure if there is any research around employees slacking off on work time. If there is, it's probably conducted by companies themselves and therefore private.

[ska]

> but has a calculation ever been done the other way?

The usual answer to something that is both an obvious question and clearly impactful is "yes, extensively". Which is separate from the question of how well the research has been done of course (in either direction).

> I would hazard a guess that this number is an order of magnitude greater than seedy business owners short changing their staff.

What broad data are you basing this on? I suspect this is one of those areas where (nearly) any one persons individual experience is basically useless, because of the inherent lack of breadth. Exceptions made for extremely unusual life/career paths that lead to better sampling by accident.

[missedthecue]

Well there doesn't seem to be much data, hence my original comment. My assumptions are based primarily on my own anecdotal observation. I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway.

I'm not minimizing wage theft. It's a real issue. I'm just casting some doubt on the claim that it's the biggest form of theft by bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered.

[pc86]

> I work a relatively low wage job with a lot of relatively low wage coworkers. Most of them make a deliberate effort every day to do as little work as possible, to the point that it occurred to me that they might be engaging in more effort than if they just did their jobs anyway.

Do you work in a state government's IT department?

[ska]

> bringing light to a viewpoint most people haven't even ever considered.

Why do you think this statement is true?

[missedthecue]

I mean there isn't even any research on it. No one talks about it. I've never heard or read anyone make the point aside from myself. What set of criterion do you regard as sufficient to deem some fact under-appreciated?

[ska]

> I mean there isn't even any research on it. No one talks about it.

Neither of these statements can be true, as I've seen multiple examples of both. For what it's worth, one of the search terms you are looking for is "time theft" (as opposed to "wage theft"), the literature on this is also well developed as you might expect. And of course there are various types of related fraud (both in favor of employer and employee) which have been studied.

> I've never heard or read anyone make the point aside from myself.

This is plausible, but doesn't tell us much about anything but your own exposure.

[WrtCdEvrydy]

Yeah, the guy mowing the lawn and getting dicked on overtime is totally goofing off on HN

[EricE]

It's easy to demonize groups you aren't a part of.

[missedthecue]

I make $15/hr

which group am I not a part of?

[Nicksil]

>I make $15/hr

This is a dishonest statement.

[missedthecue]

ok you tell me how much I make

[nullandvoid]

Spotted the guy who underpays their staff

[pc86]

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

> Please don't post shallow dismissals

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html