[tristor]

> Doing almost anything yourself feels impractical these days.

I would argue this is only the case because we've created an intentional social and skill gap in the industry between server administration and operations work and software development. My experiences, especially more recently, have been shocking in how little the average software developer knows about /very basic/ server administration. I don't have a full picture of why this is, but my gut is that part of the reason is that this type of work has become socially considered to be beneath software developers. They see it as the type of thing you're supposed to outsource, scut work for digital janitors, so they never bother learning it. There's definitely a growing sheen of disrespect in the industry towards those very valuable skills.

The outcome is, yes, it may feel impractical to do things yourself. The reality is, it's probably never been easier to do things yourself. Everything from the widespread availability of low cost enterprise-grade hardware to the plethora of virtualization technologies and associated low-cost hosting platforms means that doing things yourself has never been easier than it is today. Yet it feels so far away because software developers in our current time are no longer the tinkerers they once were, preferring to focus on abstractions over dig down into the dirt of reality.

I think the best way to resolve this challenge is for individual developers to come down from their horses and learn the basics of system administration and actually try this stuff out. You can learn nearly 80% of what there is to know about systems administration and operations with an Ubiquiti router, two Raspberry Pis, and Google given enough time. But so many devs would rather use dubious SaaS tools rather than learn how to host their own Gitlab instance or run their own CI pipeline in their closet.

[lazypenguin]

I don't agree. I spent a significant amount of time playing around with servers and never developed "mastery". I think that server administration has gotten more complex and the tools haven't changed much to help. A simple example is setting up an HTTPS/TLS/SSL endpoint. In the past, you just ran the HTTP server and you were off. Now there's a whole load of extra ceremony to setup a CA and sign your own cert or download a cert and merge it into something else. I think one can easily find many tiny little paper cuts like that and each time you have to remember some special process for how you do it. Unless you're repeatedly doing it or taking good notes it's hard for that knowledge to stick. Not to mention things change over time and across distributions (initv, systemd, etc.)

[pabs3]

If anything TLS has gotten easier since Lets Encrypt came along. You just install one of the clients for it, configure a domain and periodic renewal and you're done.

[brigandish]

For a public facing computer, yes, for a private one, not so much[1].

I use mkcert[2] for this but it's still fiddly.

[1] https://letsencrypt.org/docs/certificates-for-localhost/

[2] https://github.com/FiloSottile/mkcert

[rys]

I bought a domain to use for my home network instead. I have LE issue a cert for it via DNS challenge and use it liberally with hosts on my LAN, with the excellent benefit that I don’t need to give clients a new CA I invented.

[pwdisswordfish6]

It's not easier than HTTP sans TLS, which is the point that was being made.

[dceddia]

I fully agree about the skills gap, but I think the reason behind it is more that server administration has come to feel unapproachable, with an air of "better leave that to the experts", along the same lines as "don't roll your own crypto" (but less extreme) or how some people wouldn't dare run electrical wires in their homes.

Why run your own server, and keep it patched, and keep it secure, and configure the firewall, and all that stuff which spells doom if you get it wrong... when you can use some cheap or free service that does all the hard stuff for you?

I'm curious how much of this shift is purely because these tools really are better, or how much is due to an intentional marketing effort to make the DIY approach seem bad/unsafe/difficult/fraught with peril. I guess at some point it's a self-reinforcing flywheel. People think DIY is hard, so they actively avoid it, and tell their friends "running servers is hard, don't do that."

[klyrs]

> My experiences, especially more recently, have been shocking in how little the average software developer knows about /very basic/ server administration.

I used to know quite a bit of that stuff, had a series of jobs doing it. I gradually moved from C89 to modern c++ over the course of about 25 years. Easy stuff, when you use it daily. But when it's not my job to do server admin, that stuff evolves too fast to stay on top of. For me it's not a high horse, rather, a wagon that I fell off a long time ago

[dleslie]

Most folks don't _need_ much more than a LAMP-equivalent running on a virtual host somewhere.

Why bother installing k3s and whatever deployment-tool-du_jour it is these days, when dropping some files on a host is good enough?

[tristor]

Sure, and I'm not advocating to build a Rube Goldberg device, unless it's purely for learning purposes. But why go to great lengths (and expense) to avoid having to SSH into a server for your personal projects when you could run them on a Raspberry Pi or a $5/mo droplet?

The issue isn't that people need more than a LAMP stack, it's that for some reason software developers in the 2020s are scared to or think it's beneath them to install a LAMP stack of their own.