[Lapitotapito]

This is not the point.

'waste' energy means energy which you could not have used otherwise.

If it is cost effective to mine bitcoin in europe, then europe will just produce more energy for your usecase independently if it is useful to do so or not as long as it is cost effective.

This is not 'waste' energy; Its energy prodcued for your bitcoin mining.

Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes.

Do you know why farmers produce opium? Not because it is using waste farmland, because others are paying them more money for it then for food to consume. Its the same issue with bitcoin.

[emteycz]

This is absolutely false. Electricity is not at all easy (=> very hard) to store or transport, and every day megawatts go to literal waste - which is where Bitcoin miners step in. Stories about Europe making more electricity for Bitcoin miners are lies, there are few private geothermal powerplants built for that purpose and that's it. Bitcoin mining is not some goldmine (or opium farm), it takes very careful planning for electricity costs, careful contracts and careful operation; it's absolutely impossible to profitably mine Bitcoin using ordinary (industrial) electricity from the grid, very unlike opium farming.

> Would the world be better of without bitcoin? Holy shit yes.

Don't speak for others. I never want to go back to world without Bitcoin. Sure, come up with something better, but no world would not be better off without it. Millions of people have better life thanks to it.

[Lapitotapito]

Come on... State one of your claims with hard data and not just wishful thinking.

Your bitcoin miner don't have load control to make sure they consume the excess power. They just consume as much as possible.

And yes its still the same as opium farming; I can also give you annother example: when crops are used for biofuel, suddenly its financial better to produce energy instead of food. Happend in germany and other places.

I have NO IDEA why you would think that bitcoin mining is done by magical high intelligent controling systems. Haven't you seen any documentation on bitcoin mining operations at all?

I mined bitcoins myself a few years back at home as well.

https://www.primafelicitas.com/5-biggest-bitcoin-mining-farm... none of them did this for using 'waste' energy, they all did it for th emoney.

Missusing subsidised cheap electricity and now increasing competition for energy. And there have been enough stories on grid failers in china and regulators stopping those mining farms due to this.

"Millions of people have better life thanks to it." <<< this sentence is really weird. Are you talking about real people having a real benefit of bitcoin or are you talking about people getting rich of bitcoin by polluting our planet with unnecessary co2 and increased prices for others?

[emteycz]

> I mined bitcoins myself a few years back at home as well.

Key words being "few years back". I mined at home few years ago too - nowadays it's absolutely impossible.

You can find data easily yourself, simply check what wholesale electricity costs on the exchange right now, and check what you can earn with the most advanced mining hardware - you'll see that the earnings are three times lower than the cheapest electricity.

> I have NO IDEA why you would think that bitcoin mining is done by magical high intelligent controling systems

Because that's what you have to do if you want to have any profit from mining in 2021. It was different in 2017, I agree.

> this sentence is really weird. Are you talking about real people having a real benefit of bitcoin

Real benefit. Bitcoin makes it easy to transfer and store money where it was previously impossible.

> when crops are used for biofuel, suddenly its financial better to produce energy instead of food

Totally false, that never was and never will be profitable. It's only done because of EU subsidies (and these subsidies destroyed my country's landscape and food self-sufficiency).

[Lapitotapito]

Yeah thats not interesting or fun to discuss with you when you just bring up thoughts and not any source at all.

It is a fact that bitcoin uses energy; There is no source of your claim of bitcoin using 'waste' energy.

You also assume that the 'waste' energy exists apparently in areas where they have fully isolated energy grids which would make it impossible for anyone else to use this energy better then bitcoin does; You ignore aluminum melting, data centers, normal households, heating etc. You ignore that energy subsidies exist to support people and are missused by bitcoin miners.

You claim bitcoin can store money, which it can do as efficiency as any other commodity out there: gold, shares, a normal bank account;

You claim bitcoin can be used to transfer money easily while ignoring that bitcoin itself has this benefit as every other exchange has; It is highly volatile, everything but userfriendly and is uncontrolled; We have a controlled money system not for the fun of it but because the rich people and unfair people tend to move money around uncontrolled; This costs you and me potentially money if tomorrow everyone would move to an anonymouse currency.

You can transfer money around the world by western union, paypal, amazon/google giftcards, gift cards, my credit card can buy in every currency; I have bought money from iran, usa, spain, japan without any issues.

And you ignore the basic fact, that bitcoin HAS TO BE MINED to be working. It HAS To BE distributed to be working. If only countries with cheap electricity are mining or a majority becomes real, it breaks; It breaks if someone is no longer motivated by earning enough bitcoins through mining as you can't do any transaction any more. The energy price of global economys is not connected to the energy price of bitcoin directly. People will pay the transaction fee as long as they want to be able to do anything with their bitcoins.

EU subsidies where not meant to motivate too many people to make energy out of crops; Thats the exact point i was making about subsidies and energy prices. How can you not see this?