[actuator]

It doesn't have to be most actually, just the ability to let out what even few are thinking.

Look at what's happening in India. An elected government on a clear majority, passed new laws and some section of people which are not happy with it, have held the government to ransom through protests. There seems to be international civil society support for the protests as it seems like the powerless going against an all powerful government.

Without going into the merits of the protests in this particular example, just the fact that even a small section is able to express themselves is a good thing. One can always argue that this can become counter productive, but I guess that's better than people suffering silently.

Having said this, I don't doubt that the majority of people in PRC, at least Han Chinese are massively better off in the last 40 years.

[Udik]

I agree on the principle: being able to openly protest is better than not. Once this has been said, there is a big difference between a tyrannical government that keeps people in poverty and an authoritarian one that has brought many hundreds of millions to a western standard of life and made the country a credible competitor to the only other world super-power.

I perfectly understand a Chinese being proud of their country, their government and their CCP- as much as Americans are proud of their country despite their 2 million imprisoned people, dual-party system that allows no competition, police violence, decades of wars waged around the world and support for dictatorships and coups to overthrow democratically elected leaders. Things could certainly be even better and hopefully with time they will be- but this attitude of fixating on one aspect to justify a black-and-white view of the world- in which your side is the good one- is damn stupid.

[roca]

It is good to be proud of China's economic achievements. It is not good to be proud of totalitarianism, the genocide of the Uighurs, religious persecution, etc.

[newen]

I’m just trying to explain the dynamics of typical HN comments regarding Chinese citizens, where the usually American commenter writes under the assumption that the Chinese citizen is held under this brutal dictatorship and must use any and all opportunity to speak up and/or oppose this brutal dictatorship. It’s a relatively recent phenomenon in American politics and it’s interesting to think about.

[Udik]

What's even more interesting is that, despite being a recent phenomenon, everybody seems convinced it's absolutely normal to think in these terms. And yet I am sure than only four or five years ago people were talking about China in an entirely different way.

[roca]

Five years ago it was easy to believe that China was on a trajectory of increasing freedom. Then Xi's change in direction really took hold: the abuse of the Uighurs happened and became known, religious persecution increased, democracy was ended in Hong Kong, Xi made himself dictator for life, etc. It is entirely reasonable for people to talk about China in a different way now.

[free_rms]

What's happening in India is that farmers were/are going to be screwed, and they're really mad about it.

What has happened in China is that a billion farmers are massively, undescribably better off. You literally cannot describe it to the average American, their scale for lifestyle doesn't go that low.

[actuator]

> What has happened in China is that a billion farmers are massively, undescribably better off.

After Great Leap forward? Cultural Revolution? What about the farmers of the marginalized communities in Tibet and Xinjiang. I am not saying all that gets printed in Western press is true but it is not all fabricated up as well. There was an actual cost to getting here, which might not have happened in a democratic setup.

> What's happening in India is that farmers were/are going to be screwed, and they're really mad about it.

From news reports it seems only a section of farmers, as the protests are concentrated in few areas. But as I said in the comment above I don't want to go into the merits/demerits of it, as looking from outside we both will not have the complete info. You can call them capitalist interests but most of the expert opinion from a farming/economics standpoint within the country and outside seems to support the laws.

[bohadi]

Yes, there is a price and a sacrifice. India is choosing different trade-offs.

Others' progress is our progress too.

[free_rms]

Can you name the dates and major events within the Great Leap forward or Cultural Revolution without googling and reading wikipedia?

I'm not trying to assert authority here but you could look at the last 500 years, the last 200, 100, years, the last 50 years.. cherrypicking a 25 year period that happened between 70-45 years ago is kinda weird if you're after understanding rather than scoring points.

[smsm42]

In the same vein, why should we be obsessing about mere 12 years of German history, and one guy (who isn't even a German but an Austrian!) instead of looking back at hundreds of years of European history and ignoring that unfortunate, but ultimately minor, incident? I mean, if we're about understanding, not scoring points.

[free_rms]

Germany's an ally. We don't try to beat them up over hitler, and it wouldn't make sense if we did. For basically the same reasons, so good choice of analogy I guess.

[smsm42]

Something happened between the time of Hitler and not beating them over it now, that led to Germany becoming an ally. But I guess this is also one of those things we're not supposed to dwell on? It was not an ally and became an ally, just like that. Same with Japan, btw. I guess that would happen magically with China too?