[tjalfi]

Proposition 47[0] in 2014 substantially reduced the penalties for shoplifting, grand theft, forgery, fraud, and other crimes.

Stealing <$950 is a misdemeanor regardless of how often someone does it.

It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_California_Proposition_47

[mc32]

It’s also the way SF deals with crime. Daly City borders SF and they don’t suffer these crimes at the same rate. Their prosecutors prosecute. They don’t play the restorative justice game —which SF pushes on victims.

[notyourday]

"If we could just teach prisoners to code and stop with this retribution nonsense" as so many HNers pontificated a few hours ago...

[mc32]

Unfortunately people want quick-fix solutions that mollify their conscience too. It's become ideological.

In SF the climate is such that officers only pursue the most egregious cases where they think their work will have results. They know the DA will pull punches and drag their feet and drop lesser cases so they don't even bother. The DA often times pushes the victim to agree to restorative justice. It's not a deterrent.

Restorative Justice can work in some special cases. We can work to make prisoners more ready for the workforce when they get out. But we need lots of support in the way of social pressure and also some brainwashing/reconditioning. Most criminals will not want to go through the effort of turning things around, unless you change them via stick and carrot. It's hard to change course. It's hard to change course for anybody.

Now, some people are salvageable. We have to get better at spotting potential and providing tools and support for those people who want to change for the better.

[powerslacker]

This is actually the main reason I left California. Legalized lawlessness. Law enforcement fought like crazy to convince people that this was terrible legislation. Unfortunately, it passed and I packed up my stuff a few months later. Most folks in other states don't realize how bad the situation is in the Bay area.

[stonesweep]

I personally think it leads to this theory which my life experience tends to agree with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

[pwim]

While the broken windows theory was popular in the past, the research doesn’t support it: https://news.northeastern.edu/2019/05/15/northeastern-univer...

[cema]

I think that the study you refer to is open to interpretation.

[uoaei]

Broken windows policing doesn't directly address crime rates, it artificially inflates the levels of perceived crime in order to boost police reputation through reported statistics.

Real crime rates have been falling ever since they started measuring it, and there is no demonstrable correlation with increased police presence or strength/brutality of their weapons.

[stonesweep]

I lived in SF proper for many years. The lack of prosecution for smash & grabs absolutely led to an increase of more smash & grabs. Here's an article Google found for me easily: https://sfist.com/2017/08/31/massive_jump_in_san_francisco_c... (and don't skip the comments) - people simply stopped reporting smash & grab because they knew it was useless.

[dragonwriter]

> It would be surprising if this didn't lead to a substantial increase in the crime rate.

Probably doesn't make a big difference to San Francisco vs other major West Coast cities, since most of the major West Coast cities are also in California.

[ghufran_syed]

that makes sense - I suspect it’s this in addition to local prosecutors failing to prosecute.

There was an article last year about how the thieves know to stay in san francisco county and not cross into san mateo county, because the chances of being arrested and prosecuted is much higher in san mateo county

[mc32]

Right. Daly City is next door and crime gets prosecuted there therefore fewer of these types of crimes.

[mgm1709]

Statewide crime rates in California fell consistently in the years subsequent to the passage of Prop. 47, and in 2019 the state’s statewide crime rates reached their lowest levels in recorded history

[redis_mlc]

If you don't arrest anybody, then stats will go down.

I live in SF, and it's pretty dangerous. So whatever stats you're quoting don't apply to SF.

I suggest you watch some of the antifa/BLM downtown attacks on pedestrians to see what lawlessness looks like - that happens daily in SF.

[dariusj18]

Since this is talking about armed robbery, I don't think this has anything to do with it.

[ALittleLight]

The armed robbery was the event that pushed them over the edge. The other robberies/thefts they mention were just people stealing stuff. I think it's also possible that a community that ignores theft isn't too harsh on more serious crimes too.

[systemvoltage]

Since when is even stealing anything excusable? Stealing $300 purse or $30000 car is exactly the same thing morally. The value of the item is in some ways orthogonal.

Theft should be punished in the strongest forms possible so no one even thinks about doing it. Minimum 1 year in prison for stealing anything.

Convince me otherwise.

[tjalfi]

One problem with this is that most cases don't go to trial and miscarriages of justice are a regular occurrence.

Many cases 90+% ([0], [1]) are plea-bargained out, e.g. the accused couldn't afford representation, the public defender takes the offer, etc.

Some of these people were innocent but serving a year in prison will make it hard for them to rebuild their lives.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-bec...

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/innocen...

[AnimalMuppet]

I mostly agree with you. But...

Let's say someone steals a $300 purse or a $30000 car. Nobody needs either a $300 purse or a $30000 car. But let's say someone steals $10 of food from a grocery store. They may legitimately need that. (Or they may just have poor self-control.) If someone legitimately needs food, I could bend my mind far enough to call that "excusable".

[systemvoltage]

Then the society should make provisions to directly provide food for the needy.

Allowing stealing is not tackling the problem head-on and instead squirming on a morally questionable line and thereby breeding crime and ill in the society.

[AnimalMuppet]

That's perfectly reasonable to say that society should do that.

In the meantime, though, society doesn't do that, at least not consistently enough. So in the current circumstances, I still have some compassion for someone in genuine need who steals food.

[systemvoltage]

From this thread, it seems like the society itself has voted to allow crime.

So, let me get this straight and state curtly - A city allows crime, then complains about rising crime!?

May be people of this city should question their understanding of how to run a good society.

[woofcat]

Whilst I don't live in California or even America. I'm about 95% sure you guys have food banks, as my company has donated to them.

[Khaine]

And what of the local business owner who has invested his life saving in a business, and needs the income from the business to feed his family? How is it okay to let people steal from him because "it's only $10". Thats figuratively food being taken from his family's mouth.

This is why laws need to be enforced uniformly.

[ehvatum]

> But let's say someone steals $10 of food from a grocery store

If you allow that, you will soon enough be without grocery stores!!!

[conanbatt]

I think so too, and it is also defensible for the store owner to protect his 10$ with 0.50 cent shotgun shells.

[sundaeofshock]

Are you suggesting that stealing $10 worth of food is an executable offense?

[conanbatt]

Nope

[tomjen3]

If there wasn't food banks, food stamps or penhandling, maybe.

[mensetmanusman]

It costs $50k to house someone for a year.