[Melting_Harps]

> Hiring a chef and a butler is a far cry from having servants.

I was a private chef, and in my situation (off-season Historical European Hotel) no, it really isn't... what experience do you speak from to make such a statement?

Culinary work, after you strip all the romanticism, is at it's core slave labour.

[cgrealy]

Slave labour? I’ve said millions of times that I love exaggeration, but even I think that’s taking it a bit far.

Were you paid? Could you leave the job if you wanted?

Then it’s not slave labour.

[Melting_Harps]

> Were you paid? Could you leave the job if you wanted?

I've been screwed out of payment by kitchen/hotel owners after providing my service, yes... which is why I retired for the 2nd time after losing 3 months of payment in my last gig in Italy after accepting to continue while the owner had the chance to recover investment over the Summer and cover expenses, one guy there (a barman) was on his 6th month of working without pay as he couldn't find work in 2013 anywhere at his age (50s) but could take home uneaten leftovers off of gusests plates or extra we had at the end of service to his elderly parents who he looked after. It was heartbreaking. It's just some of the perils of working in a precarious profession in a failing economy and as an undocumented worked (me) while doing my apprenticeship. You accept it and you move on, but you never forget.

I soon learned to do roofing, re-framing and other misc refurbishment jobs on homes after that Fall and swore to myself I'd never come back while I finished my apprenticeship in Ag--then I got the bug and came back in 2018 after quitting IBM.

Also, I have friends that are chef(s) and owner of their kitchens that were shut down during COVID, and for them the anser is also: No.

The State government told them to shut down and the State/Federal governments left them out in the cold after complying with the outdoor restrictions and buying lots of expensive equipment and re-hiring staff after doing things by themselves during the take out option only operation. They sunk their, and much of their extended family's life savings into building those businesses and some didn't qualify for PPP and bet it all once more just to cover the previous loans.

You only think it's 'exaggeration' because you likely are afforded a great deal of security from your position in tech where you don't even understand just how lucky/privileged you are to be able to work from home and still earn a (bloated) salary and not have the incompetence and corruption of the State make you shut down your operation with little to no fall back plan after having sunk $10,000+ of dollars in loans to continue to operate and still be shut down.

I could go on, but the answer is that not being paid for your labour is normal, we have things called 'stages' that equate to working interviews in which you are not paid is the 'norm.' In Europe (where I worked for a significant part of my career) and Asia it's typical to stage for weeks, even months before to show you can be relied on to do basic tasks and show up on time and not endanger yourself or others.

Is this legal? Probably not, but its the norm.

I've worked in both Industrys (culinary and tech) and even tried to merge the two together, founded my own startup and then worked at a Multinational Corp and was on later stage round interviews at SpaceX when COVID hit.

And all of those Industries, for me at least, have their dark sides that people never want to talk about except for me for some reason, so I stand by my claim about culinary despite people in that Industry thinking I have had this very romantic and idealic career when I tell them what and where I've worked over the years.

My passion for food (and what it can do to nourish and change individuals and communities) is the only thing that let me believe being physically and verbally abused was acceptable, get paid nothing, work long (sometimes unpaid) hours when I was running my own kitchen and often while injured (from farming in the AM) just to make ends meet and be able to practice my Art was worth it. I'm glad to say I've hit a peak I will never reach again and I'm old enough and mature enough to be able to bow out with my head held high and fall back on other skill sets with some basic re-training.

So, again... it's only exaggeration to you because chances are you never worked a day in the Industry and aren't aware of how common those stories are.

[cgrealy]

None of what you describe is slave labour.

There are people in actual slavery all over the world and there is a world of difference between having a crap job or getting screwed out of money and being a slave.

And no, I’ve never worked in hospitality, but I’ve had my share of terrible jobs and I have friends that work in the industry.

I completely agree that most people in the industry are underpaid (especially in the US... it’s criminal the way servers are expected to live on tips).

But again, it’s not slave labour.

[harperlee]

That’s a long way to say that you think that when they said:

> Were you paid? Could you leave the job if you wanted? Then it’s not slave labour.

That’s not a great definition of “slave labour” because, for starters, “getting paid” and “ability to change jobs” are not binary.

[Melting_Harps]

> That’s not a great definition of “slave labour” because, for starters, “getting paid” and “ability to change jobs” are not binary.

One has to understand these are the very same people who stand by when they see Apple use contractors and deny them pay and just think 'oh well...' and go back to working for Apple and then through a convoluted form of mental gymnastics compartmentalize things to such an extent that they cannot see themselves as a critical part of the problem (even when those very people being exploited at their countrymen and something their parents fled to to the West for because of an acute form of diffusion of responsibility.

It's an illness and a reflection of a very sick Society, to think that small restaurant owners aren't labouring under some very convoluted form of slave labour at the hand of the State and Federal government is beyond me. They went into so much debt, and aren't working for money, simply the survival of the business in the face of forced consolidation by massive Industry and tech conglomerates.

And the fact that this is ok amongst so many in Society goes to show how slavery never went away, it just got obfuscated and presents itself in more tolerable and palatable forms for the majority of people once they reach a certain point (or the illusion of it) in Life.

You can't walk away for from a loan where you used your and your family's house as collateral, and the fact that most of these owners aren't even breaking even and just going into further debt because of continued lockdowns that the very politicians who enacted them (Newson, Pelosi et all in CA) are on tape showing how they think they're exempt for them shows how diffusion of responsibility better than anything else how slavery just changed flavours with the same ingredients.

[cgrealy]

It is literally the definition of slave labour:

“labour which is coerced and inadequately rewarded” (Oxford)

If you are not paid well and you can leave the job then it’s not slave labour, it’s just a crappy job.

[devchix]

I'm discovering that a portion of HN is salty about what is "slave labor". You were paid a pittance, it's not slave labor. Were you chained to a pole and couldn't leave? No? Well clearly not slave labor. Oh, they left you a hacksaw, so you could have left if you wanted. Not slavery. Soon, "slave wages" will not be a thing because clearly slaves are never paid. Figurative language is not a thing, apparently.

[Melting_Harps]

> I'm discovering that a portion of HN is salty about what is "slave labor". You were paid a pittance, it's not slave labor. Were you chained to a pole and couldn't leave? No? Well clearly not slave labor. Oh, they left you a hacksaw, so you could have left if you wanted. Not slavery. Soon, "slave wages" will not be a thing because clearly slaves are never paid. Figurative language is not a thing, apparently.

It's the FAANG Silicon Valley cult way of thinking and it's why its so fucking gross; everything amounts to exploitation of 'low skilled' work force to make unprofitable things palatable for Seed rounds and then VC money in order to buyout your competition or suffocate it in the cradle and ensure a monopoly and massive 'growth' and then attach it to surveillance based business model(s) and call it 'optimized marketing' and now you have a billion dollar valuation and a frothy IPO exit scam for the VCs, which translates to bloated compensations and meaningless titles (they call themselves 'engineers' when it suits them but reduce themselves to mere 'coders' when shit blows up in their faces) for those with little to no morals and a narrow skill set--yes, I can code, too, and I also worked for a Megacorp at one point and I still maintain its a very narrow skill set.

Not to mention how soul-sucking it is to just sit at a desk all day and stare at a screen while editing or debugging some BS platform that optimizes how to make people hate each other more online and call it optimizing 'engagement' while using casino style addiction behavior models. So, I'm afraid it becomes inevitable since empathy is something that I fear erodes with time, and is lost altogether in the wrong environment--insular echo chambers with no room for dissent and stigmatization and cancel culture at arms length if you ever step out of line.

Ultimately, it's a reminder that people who benefit from the system are the first and most adamant to refute these claim, and we're on HN.

I just wonder how shallow their collective lives must be to be so willing to exploit another person and make light of their situation and still follow the 'making the World a better place' BS narrative that's become emblematic with all that is wrong with Silicon Valley and big tech in general these days.

I mean it's almost like people here forget that debtors prisons were a form of imprisonment with slavery at its core and were a thing in the US not that long ago, some still exist today [0], and dates back to the inception of Western Society (Greece) where it was common practice after succumbing to large amounts of debts which had to be paid off.

In the end its like creating a culture where everyone wants to be Jeff Bezos with an almost ambivalent of not outright misanthropic view of the World. It's pathetic but also why I'm glad we're seeing an exodus of them out of CA in masse, I mean how else could they see that amount of homelessness and poverty and be ok with buying endless amounts of distractions and toys to serve their infantile appetites to see the misery the helped create: CA now houses 50% of the US' homeless.

0: https://truthout.org/articles/these-seven-states-still-opera...

[baggy_trough]

What a grotesque remark.

[Melting_Harps]

> What a grotesque remark.

You want the truth, or the BS story you get from the banal Food Networks or Top Chefs of the World that lets you delude yourself that its ok to not tip much or at all when you go out in what is horrible Industry attached to an even worse business model? And BOH (cooks, dishwashers) doesn't get any of that mind you.

Bourdain's Kitchen Confidential was, at times clearly embellished for attention grabbing purposes to sell books, a very accurate depiction of the Industry. Which is why he became the patron saint of sorts to the Culinary World, despite being an admittedly mediocre chef.

There was a time I really wished everyone had spent a summer working in a kitchen to gain perspective on what that thing really is, now it's very unlikely to occur after COVID.

Still, it's pretty eye opening.

[baggy_trough]

Bad working conditions don't equate to slave labor.