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by nostromo 1969 days ago
Saying something wasn't terrorism doesn't mean it wasn't unlawful or stupid or terrible. It just means it wasn't terrorism.
1 comments

The definition - 'the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims' - seems to fit the event we're discussing.
Yup, and Antifa and BLM have caused fear in Portland for political reasons as well. They lit the mayor's apartment building on fire, but were not called out as terrorists.

The media is not even handed here.

Yes, there is credence to the old saying: "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".

But I really don't think we need to devolve to whataboutism here. We're talking about the actions of people storming the capitol building, to try and say 'yes well X group of people are also terrorists' is a completely moot point and an intentional deflection.

This thread started with you saddened at folks downplaying the events at the Capitol.

I'm much more concerned with the media being complicit in downplaying what we both agree is domestic terrorism elsewhere.

I suppose that's a "what about", but I fear the current structures of power colluding to form narratives more than angry trumpers.

So, there's a few things to unpack here.

1. I don't (personally) agree that the 'black lives matter' protests should be considered as 'terrorism', because fundamentally they began as a protest against the systematic mistreatment of a certain race/demographic of people. While it can be viewed as political, it's not quite the same as 'storming the capital of a country to overturn the result of an election', which is undeniably a political goal. While some BLM rioters eventually did conduct what could be described as terrorist acts, it fundamentally isn't the same thing.

2. You're welcome to disagree on that point, but it's not what's being discussed in this thread.

3. Yes, media overreach is an issue, but it's not the topic of the conversation.

4. I am still sad that people are trying to downplay the issue, and not just because some people don't want to call it terrorism. People saying 'oh in the future it won't even be remembered' etc etc is also problematic as it's downplaying the event itself.

Edit: Added point 2

Thank you; I really appreciated this comment. I’m feeling much the same way, and it’s been in my mind a lot lately. I think the heart of the issue is a failure to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. People look at each thing in isolation and say, “it’s not that big a deal”, but somehow (especially surprising for folks who frequent HN) fail to see the larger patterns.
And every single BLM fear-monger here continues to ignore that violence at those protests had outside agitators in the mix: https://www.startribune.com/police-umbrella-man-was-a-white-...
93% of the BLM protests were peaceful [1] despite protestors numbering in the millions, if not tens of millions - compared to the tens of thousands at the capitol. The most notable violence during the BLM protests was an incident where far right extremists, members of Bugaloo boys group involved in the capitol attack, used the protests as cover to murder cops [2].

To compare the two is disingenuous.

[1] https://acleddata.com/2020/09/03/demonstrations-political-vi...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/06/17/boogaloo-st...

93% of meteors hitting earth are harmless.

This is not about the probability but the outcome at the tail

7% or 3% or 1% is still huge. The right number to use is 0%. Not 1% or 7% Zero. Those protests literally shut down critical stores for people in dire straits. For ex. The only pharmacy near low income seniors with limited motor ability, with the double whammy that public transport also shut down.

Cities on fire every week is not OK especially when the offenders are inmune from law enforcement.

To think that 7% is acceptable smacks of priviledge. Someone is clearly not living in the inner city, and does not know what it means to not own a car when the public transport system is halted and the only supermarket near is razed.

Within a few blocks of where I used to live, armed “protesters” physically seized control of a police station and city park and committed four shootings—ironically, the last of these entailed the armed “security” forces misidentifying and opening fire on two black teenagers, killing one of them.
Sorry man, but the most notable violence during the BLM protests was the gangland style execution of two black teens after the "movement" had taken over six city blocks.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/shooting-at-... https://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2020/07/seattle-times-rep... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8471219/One-man-dea...

Well, just today 11 officers were injured in the MLK day protest at City Hall, NYC. The Police Commissioner Dermot Shea himself stated that this was not a peaceful protest.

What about the BLM protesters who attempted to burn down the Portland courthouse with federal officers inside ?

Why is this not actively denounced as terrorism ? https://nypost.com/2020/07/22/portland-protesters-barricade-...

BLM is protesting against systematic racism, the trumpers where trying to overturn an election.

Why would you even try to group those two things together?

How could it possibly be a problem that "the media" doesn't consider those two things equal?

It doesn't matter. Violence for a political reason is terrorism[1].

I'm pointing out media hypocrisy, that doesn't mean I'm condoning any violence.

Violence is wrong in support of BLM, it's wrong in support of Trump.

The ends do not justify those means (and in fact are likely to be counterproductive).

[1] ter•ror•ism tĕr′ə-rĭz″əm► n. The use of violence or the threat of violence, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political goals.

Terrorism is one of those words that are a bit hard to define.

If you would use the definition you wrote here, a lot of things would be considered terrorism. There would probably be more terrorists than non-terrorists in the world then..

But anyway, I think we can agree on the "violence is wrong"-part, and the counterproductive part.

But saying that if any form of violence occured during a protest, then those protests should be considered equal, is, well, I don't even know what to call it; Dishonest?

Now, what I really disagree about is the "I'm pointing out media hypocrisy"-part. I really don't think you are doing that, I think that what you are doing is, complaining that "the media" seems to agree more with me than with you on this issue, and then phrasing it like your point of view is objectively correct.

I think missing from the definition is "indiscriminate"

That makes a significant difference.

On one side, the Right's movement against the capitol was specifically targeting politicians. This movement affected a priviledged political class and the people that they employ.

In the other extreme, the BLM movement against (x) targeted (y) . This movement affected seniors, students, women, owners , employees, blacks, latinos, indiscriminately.

This is the crux of the issue. X and Y are quite random and thus lend themselves far easier to the classic definition of terrorism

Terrorism, by definition to many, requires the intentional infliction of terror to achieve those aims. That’s why it’s called “terrorism” rather than “political violence”
It's quite odd that that phrasing allows for lawful violence and intimidation.