[hypertele-Xii]

Finland maintains a healthy distance to the west's extreme capitalism. Healthcare is free. Education is free (and mandatory). Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free. The government owns the only railroad. Many governments, including the current one, consist of majority Social Democratic Party. Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army. Newborns receive a free package of baby products. Taxes are among the highest in the world (wealth redistribution). There is a sizable political national-socialist sentiment (a little worrying even).

I'll grant you, the communist-leaning powers did lose the civil war in 1918 though.

[jusssi]

> Education is free (and mandatory).

Yes.

> Healthcare is free.

Not quite, but close. There's a token payment for using the services. Prescription meds are covered when they go over ~€500/year. Social services will cover for you if you can't pay.

> Housing is free. Water is free. Electricity is free. Internet is free.

No, unless you have no property (you need to sell or lose everything first) and no income, in which case the social services covers the basic necessities for you: housing, water, electricity, even internet access are considered basic necessities.

> Convicted criminals can still vote. All males are drafted into the army.

I don't see what either of these has to do with capitalist/socialist.

[morceauxdebois]

None of those are policies exclusive to a socialist system. But what do i know about Social Democracy, im just Swedish.

[cygx]

But you do know that historically, 'Social Democratic' is just a name chosen by European socialist parties for themselves? The membership list[1] of the Party of European Socialists (known as Europeiska socialdemokratiska partiet in Swedish) reflects this to this day.

It is of course true that a Social Democracy is not a fully socialist society, but that discussion was already had last century during the Revisionismusdebatt kicked off by Eduard Bernstein in 1896.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_of_European_Socialists#M...

[zajio1am]

Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s into social democratic parties and communist parties. So no need to use 'socialist' instead of 'social democratic' unless you want to dogwhistle to communist supporters.

Also note that this meaning of term 'socialist' is rather archaic (and not in opposition to term 'capitalist'). The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.

[cygx]

> Yes, but these parties use 'social democratic' after a split of socialist parties in 1920s

Depends on the country: The parties are still called 'socialist' to this day in Albania, Belgium, Bulgaria, France, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Portugal, Spain.

> The modern meaning of 'socialism' is to describe economic system in countries of soviet communist bloc.

Quote German Wikipedia on Sozialismus[1], which views Sozialdemokratie as one of its branches:

> Demzufolge wird auch grob zwischen den Ausrichtungen von Kommunismus, Sozialdemokratie oder Anarchismus differenziert.

> Hence one differentiates roughly between the strains of Communism, Social Democracy or Anarchism.

Quote Wikipedia on Sozialdemokratie[2]:

> Sozialdemokratie ist eine politische Bewegung und politische Ideologie der Linken, die sich selbst – mal mehr, mal weniger stark ausgeprägt – als Form eines reformistischen demokratischen Sozialismus betrachtet.

> Social Democracy is a political movement and political ideology of the left, which views itself - sometimes to a greater, sometimes to a lesser extent - as a form of reformist democratic socialism.

Quote Hamburger Programm, the German SPD's party platform[3]:

> The end of the soviet type state socialism did not disprove the idea of democratic socialism but it clearly confirmed the orientation of social democracy towards core values. In our understanding democratic socialism remains the vision of a free and fair society in solidarity. Its realization is a permanent task for us. The principle for our actions is social democracy.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialismus

[2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sozialdemokratie

[3] https://www.spd.de/fileadmin/Dokumente/Beschluesse/Grundsatz...

[hypertele-Xii]

Please indicate which of these policies are presented by the extremely capitalist US, which I compared Finland to.

[taffer]

> Electricity is free

That's hard to believe. Can I just go there (as an EU citizen) and mine bitcoins for free?

[hypertele-Xii]

Free to a point. The government has a (supposedly) reasonable ceiling for electricity consumption. I actually hit that ceiling a while back, but got the decision overturned by complaining about it. I'm running a fair bit of tech 24/7 including electric heating (given Finland winters), no bitcoins though.

I've yet to study the exact nature of the EU with regards to social support, so I don't know if you could just come here and collect welfare.

[taffer]

I don't understand your last sentence. Is electricity free only for those who collect social welfare?

[hypertele-Xii]

Yes. You have to be a Finnish citizen with no income to qualify.

Everyone not participating in the capitalist economy (by owning business or being employed at one) is essentially a government/military reserve employee on indefinite paid leave receiving a budget that covers virtually all living expenses to quite a reasonable standard. And it's baseline, every citizen eligible, other obligations withstanding. You'd have to really make a mess of your life to not live comfortably.

The only downside is, if there's war, I have to give my life for the country. Which, given Finland's history (defensiveness and neutrality), seems like a good deal to me. Most men get actively recalled to military trainings; I've personally been exempt during peacetime.

I could indeed mine bitcoins for free. But that'd be a gross misuse of my time and resources. I'd rather create something meaningful than literally waste electricity just to prove that I have it (the idiotic quality of proof-of-work cryptocurrency).

[passerby1]

>not participating in the capitalist economy

Does this definition include people who actively refusing to be employed, or is there any kind of law obligations to work?

[hypertele-Xii]

Including active refusal, yes. It's baseline.

The "catches" to everything being free: - Cannot save any money whatsoever. As with all government budgets, what you don't spend is deducted from the next check. - Can receive a maximum of around $50/month from anywhere else. Anything above that is deducted from the next check. - Cannot own much property. They want you to sell everything and live off that first. - Have to report all your assets and provide bank statements to all accounts. - Have to be prepared to fight the bureaucracy. They make mistakes, and usually against your interest (we won't pay because X). Complaining has always solved all issues for me, but it takes two weeks minimum to get an answer. If you didn't file everything correctly two weeks before you needed it, you might go half a month with no money until it resolves. Unless you show up at the office crying. Then they'll help you on the spot. Information doesn't flow between departments; You have to provide everything any department asks regardless if they have your info elsewhere in the system. Often they require you apply for a different benefit first, even if everybody knows you don't qualify; They require the rejection to proceed. Add another two weeks.

And the real bummer: - If you work, everything stops. So you can't work part-time. You have to earn at least as much as the welfare for working to make any economic sense. It's annoying. I'd like to work occasionally, but there's no point. The choice is between doing nothing and getting X, or spending all your time and energy working 8 hours a day, five days a week and getting X+1. Some people go crazy without jobs; I'm creative and self-driven so I make all kinds of stuff by myself. It's pretty neat.

And there's always cash. What they can't track they can't take away... Gifts best given in cash. Unused budget best withdrawn from an ATM and stashed in the matress. God UBI would do so much good here. People stuck in this "welfare trap" could actually work a little to improve their standing.