[stretchcat]

Maybe if student unions weren't a complete joke, the situation would improve. As it stands, teachers unions keep terrible teachers employed, against the interest of the students, while the students have no real representation or organization to provide balance by looking after student interests.

My mother was a middleschool teacher when I was in highschool, and drove me to highschool in the morning. Because she was a teacher, she had to get there before the school obstensibly opened, which wasn't a problem for me or my brothers because the administration of the highschool was reasonable and let us sit quietly in the office until the school opened. A handful of other kids had this arrangement too. It worked fine until my junior year, when the teachers union decided to throw a hissy fit. The result of that was all students being made to stand outside in the cold until the school was officially open. The teachers Union said that allowing students into the building before school hours unfairly saddled them with more labor... never mind that we were all quietly sitting in the office receiving compliments from the secretaries for being well behaved.

[worik]

I find these stories from the USA about teachers unions fascinating. My prior is strongly pro union, so for a long time I disbelieved them. But I hear them so often from so many sources...

We had problems back in the day here (Aotearoa) as the union movement became the battle ground for the larger social class conflicts, that whilst meat hook reality overseas, made less sense here (here it was racial conflict and colonisation that mattered, another story, another day).

The union movement was smashed in the conflict. Too corrupt and ossified to fight back against a revitalised state in the 1980s and 90s. But the public sector unions survived, and were are strong now. The teachers union here is mighty.

But we see none of the problems (bad teachers defended, stupid rules enforced arbitrarily - well some, there is still bureaucracy). The unions campaign very effectively for their members, some political agents try to stir up concern (American issues leak through here) but mostly no body really cares. When my children were at school I never gave it a thought.

Good luck to the Amazon workers, I hope it goes well.

[Thlom]

Sorry, but are teachers employed by the union who then sells the teachers labor to the school? Or do I misunderstand?

[grumple]

> teachers unions keep terrible teachers employed

Are there a bunch of would-be teachers clamoring for those jobs?

I think the lack of desirability is what keeps terrible teachers employed. There also aren't great ways to measure how good someone is at teaching.

[zdragnar]

If you were to ask the teachers and people who went to school for education that I happen to know, all of them would tell you there is absolutely more people who want to be teacher than there are open positions.

My best friend gave up on getting a teaching job and went into industry work, while my sister in law has gotten multiple certifications to be able to teach different subjects and is still only able to get part-time substitute teaching work.

[kritiko]

There are cases like NYC's "rubber rooms"[1] where teachers are paid to sit in a room and not to teach.

1 https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/08/31/the-rubber-roo...

[stretchcat]

> Are there a bunch of would-be teachers clamoring for those jobs?

Emphatically yes, particularly at nice well funded schools. I have numerous long-term friends who have become school teachers, many of then had to move quite a distance just to find schools with openings. Most states have teacher certification reciprocity with Pennsylvania, which gave them a leg up in this regard. Even so, searching for open positions was clearly stressful for them. But for them it was worth it; the work is rewarding and socially important. They like working with kids, and they like getting several months of vacation every year. There is no other job quite like it.

[munk-a]

> Emphatically yes, particularly at nice well funded schools.

I emigrated up to Canada a while back where teachers are paid very well[1] and the bad teachers get weeded out really quickly since there are plenty of enthusiastic replacements. I am sure that at well funded schools in the US teachers do great - but most US schools are terribly funded[2] so I'm not surprised folks are willing to move across the country if a well reimbursed position opens up.

1. https://www.blogto.com/city/2020/09/average-ontario-teacher-... [TL;DR 108k including benefits] - also they've got great pension options.

2. Taking New York as a random counter example since cost-of-living is probably pretty close to Toronto https://www.glassdoor.ca/Salaries/new-york-state-teacher-sal... [TL;DR 42k probably excluding benefits - which were about 12k for toronto teachers]

[kritiko]

The url says New York State. NYC teacher salaries are publicly available - ~$60-125k USD based on education and tenure. It's a solid upper middle class living (as much as you can say that in a HCOL city with insane real estate market, but it starts higher than the median household income for the city) with great benefits, pension, and job security.

https://www.uft.org/your-rights/salary/doe-and-city-salary-s...

[stretchcat]

Anecdotally, the schools with the worst funding also have the most troubled students. I think many new teachers are up for a challenge and low pay at first, but are disturbed by the reality of what they find and seek better schools for their own mental wellbeing. From what I've heard, these schools get a steady supply of freshly minted young teachers straight out of college, who burn out after a few years. Their teacher supply problems come from a failure to retain teachers, not an inability to hire them in the first place.