[judofyr]

How is PostgreSQL (or MySQL) "considerably less scalable" exactly? etcd isn't particularly known for being scalable or performant. I'm sure it's fast enough for your use-case (since you've benchmarked it), but people have been scaling both PostgreSQL and MySQL far beyond what etcd can achieve (usually at the cost of availability of course).

[apenwarr]

[I work at Tailscale] I only mean scalable for our very specific and weird access patterns, which involves frequently read-iterating through a large section of the keyspace to calculate and distribute network+firewall updates.

Our database has very small amounts of data but a very, very large number of parallel readers. etcd explicitly disclaims any ability to scale to large data sizes, and probably rightly so :)

[throwdbaaway]

This is getting confusing. The tweets sound like you are concerned about write scalability, and here it sounds like you are concerned about read scalability?

> So we can get, say, 1000 updates, bundle them all, get it synced in say ~100ms, and then answer all 1000 requests at once, and still only take ~100ms.

I assume the same trick is applicable to RDBMS as well? So you batch the 1000 updates, and do one commit with a single fsync.

> Virtually every other database I've used is quite naive about how they flush blocks to disk, which dramatically reduces their effective transactions/sec. It's rare to see one that made all the right choices here.

Can you elaborate on this? Anyway RDBMS worth its salt should be able to saturate the disk IOPS, i.e. the act of flushing itself wouldn't be the bottleneck.

> Our database has very small amounts of data but a very, very large number of parallel readers.

So the control plane is the sole writer of this database, and there are maybe 100s/1000s of other readers, who each has a watcher on etcd? Who are these readers? If they are different processes on different machines, how did it work when the database was in the json file?

Sorry for the barrage of questions, but I have to ask out of curiosity.

[Quekid5]

Not OP, but if I could ask further... How much consistency can you tolerate on your reads? From the use case you mention I imagine... quite a lot, but you could risk locking yourself out of networks/systems if you get it wrong?

EDIT: Negation is important

[jrockway]

I've always found it hard to reason about relaxing consistency, and I think people underestimate how much complexity they take on by moving away from serializable isolation towards something looser. (Fun fact! Many databases out of the box don't correctly handle the classic transaction example -- read an account balance, subtract an amount from the balance, and then add the amount to another account's balance.)

Usually people design their app with the expectation of strict serializable isolation, relax it because of some production emergency, and then deal with the business consequences of the database doing the wrong thing until the company goes out of business (usually not due to database isolation levels, to be fair).

[Quekid5]

Interesting perspective, thanks!

Not sure whether I agree or disagree, actually...

AFAICT Linearilazable is about the best we can expect in reality (at least for a distributed system), but as you point out: Very few people actually check their assumptions... and even fewer actually think about DB transactions correctly in the first place. It's actually really, really hard and people have these rules of thumb in their heads that aren't actually correct.

Which gets me to wondering if we could formalize some of this stuff... (in relevant "code scopes", dgmw!)

EDIT: If there is one thing I am certain about it is the fact that a lot of consistency can be relaxed around human interaction. It's lossy anyway, and people will call you (eventually, depending on anxiety/shyness) if you haven't fulfilled an order. The browser is the first order of that and that's already out of date once you show a page, so... Anyway, that's just to say it's amusing how much people worry about consistency on the front end