[trcollinson]

Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get:

* Substantially more actual vacation time

* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage

* Less risk/stress associated with job security

* A very similar job market

I don't imagine this is the same in every country in the EU, just as technical job markets are different in the US. But working in the US Tech Sector isn't the panacea of work related issues.

[marcinzm]

>* Substantially more actual vacation time

This depends on the company, last startup I worked at gave me around 6 weeks of vacation per year not counting holidays. Of course I got paid less than FAANG but still better than Europe even without the equity.

>* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage

I have heard a lot of people in Europe (UK and Germany) complain about issues with getting health coverage for non life threatening issues unless they also had private insurance. No idea how many companies pay for that in Europe.

>* Less risk/stress associated with job security

My bank account is my job security. I don't think I ever was worried about job loss after a few years of building up savings.

[trcollinson]

I guess my point on vacation is more around the culture of using it. As a senior level engineer/architect with maybe a small team leading role, when was the last time you took a solid 2 week off without anyone calling you for work? Heck, look at the number of unlimited PTO companies out there where employees never take a day. Just as an example.

The experience my friends have in the EU seems to be pretty good over all with healthcare. The US healthcare system give fantastic results at a phenomenal and often strange price. It's a trade-off I'm sure.

I agree that having savings helps. And I have quite a bit of savings. But I still wouldn't feel comfortable being laid off .

Over all I'm here in the US and I love it. But I'm pointing out that there is give and take to everywhere.

Also everyone keeps talking about working for FAANG but.... The vast majority of US engineers don't work for them.

[marcinzm]

The VP of Eng at my current job routinely takes a week off where he is utterly unreachable (I believe he literally went to amish country last time). The same applies to the rest of the engineering team. It's been the same at my previous two companies as well. No, it's not the norm at companies but there's plenty where that's the case.

In my experience, the US is a place where little is given to you but you can get a lot. But you cannot take anything for granted. If you value vacation then you need to grill potential employers on that point and be willing to take a job that pays less. Most people value money so if you value something different you need to be proactive about getting it.

[trcollinson]

You make a great point and one thing I posted a bit further down was when I was a director level I did a really poor job of leading by example when it came to vacation. I would literally force people to use their pto and I didn't and they would feel weird or bad. I should have been more like your VP.

[mciancia]

> Also everyone keeps talking about working for FAANG but.... The vast majority of US engineers don't work for them.

True, but since FAANGs have offices all over the world, employ a ton of people and doing market research for salaries they should offer, it might be a pretty good idea to look at them and compare what they pay per country to see disproportions

[sokoloff]

I suspect a lot of us just got back from two weeks off. Dec 19 though Jan 3 (inclusive) for me.

[refurb]

Obviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU.

Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.

[trcollinson]

I'm pretty much at the top end of the salary range where I live. I don't make an extra $150,000. I make a sizable amount. But outside of a few niche places and a few niche companies in those places, people aren't making an extra $150,000 in the US.

[bashwizard]

The vast majority of SWE in the US doesn't even make $150k/year so yeah, good luck with that $150k extra.

Last time I checked the average salary for SWE in the US was roughly $110k.

[Jyaif]

In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.

[trcollinson]

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off.

I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for my insurance. I also added $5200 in pretax to my HSA account which I used.

I paid about 30% to taxes.

I'm not complaining. I'd just like to point out that my high salary (which is not > $200,000) comes with some costs.

[iso1631]

$200k is £146k

I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc

£146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0]

With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400

For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite achievable in finance), taxes would be 39.5%, or $79k in tax [1] (there's also local property tax, but that's in the ballpark £1k-3k a year depending on the size of your house). Tax could be potentially lower as a contractor if you're clever about distributing your income, but I know they've been clamping down on some avoidance schemes.

No idea what a HSA account is, I guess some form of pension plan? That tends to come off pre-tax.

[0] https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/senior%20ui%20dev...

[1] https://listentotaxman.com/146000

[slap]

The whole IT contractor bonanza at £650/day is being killed off by the government in April 2021.

Also perm developer jobs in London are at around £100k at the 90th percentile, nowhere near £160k

See https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/developer.do

[iso1631]

How is it being killed off? You might have to pay a bit more tax (either before as part of employer NI, or after), but £650/day isn't an abnormally high rate.

I was looking at the following job last month which was advertised at £200k

Software Engineer needed for award winning tech focused hedge fund run by passionate computer scientists. Sells Flexible hours/work options Technologists only report to technologists Programmers treated as top commodity so ‘spoiled’ Very friendly/collaborative people Cutting-edge tech Multiple greenfield projects No red tape Beautiful offices Small team size in a growing company so able to make a significant impact Role Build and optimise new cutting-edge platforms to back-test, research & trade quantitative strategies Predict models to automatically invest, design and develop trading platforms Performance optimisation & building robust intelligent solutions to problems

And this one at £150k

My client is a specialist quantitative asset management company that takes pride in having a distinct culture and approach to working with technology. With a tech driven and relaxed feel in the heart of London. They are looking for an outstanding Low-latency Network Engineer. The successful candidate will be a key engineer in the company and will be designing, building and managing critical network infrastructure and automating all work.

Now sure, not everyone is paid those, but not everyone is paid $500k in america either. trcollinson was a on a gross of less than $200k as a contractor. Based on his hours that's $800 a day, or £586 a day, or £660 a day if you include Employer NI.

[blunte]

London is hugely expensive, so tech salaries should be higher there to attract workers.

Also, finance generally pays better than other industries (although banking in Netherlands pays typically low-average); but trading and investment companies pay above average.

[iso1631]

Median wage pre-tax in London is £736 a week, or £38k a year. It can't be that expensive if half the people live on that.

Median rent for a 2 bed in London is $1976 a month

Average rent for a 2 bed in San Francisco is $3772 a month

[0] https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improv...

[1] https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-ren...

[mciancia]

Yes, you can earn $200k in EU. But usually on very senior role/as contractor while in US you can get that kind of offer from FANG just out of university. I would assume that people who can get $200k in EU could get a ton more in US

[kingaillas]

>No idea what a HSA account is, I guess some form of pension plan?

I think the OP meant Health Savings Account, which lets you put money in pre-tax for certain medical expenditures. There is a limit and IIRC you lose what you don't spend. It's good if you have predictable costs, or you're saving to do an expensive procedure (friends have done this for lasik), etc. You pay the bill then submit a receipt to get reimbursed out of the account.

In the US these are now termed Flexible Spending Accounts, with subcategories of Health, Dependent Care, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_spending_account

It helps, but certainly a different attitude towards social safety nets, defense spending, etc would make a larger difference.

[jldugger]

No, FSA and HSA are similar but different. They both exist, the use-it-or-lose it variety you're talking about is called an FSA. HSAs, on the other hand, can carry over year to year, and doubles as a source of income in retirement.

The downside is you must have high deductible plan to contribute to an HSA -- the idea is that you put aside enough money to cover the high deductible just in case, but are now motivated to price comparison shop for MRIs and whatnot, since any unspent money is now yours to keep.

[foogazi]

I don’t get this. As a consultant do you get time off? If so why didn’t you use your vacation time? Why not take December off?

Did working those extra weeks mean more value to you?

[trcollinson]

I am a W2 employee for a consulting firm. They pay me a salary with some benefits and some vacation time and bill be out to clients.

I'd say it's a cultural thing why we don't use it. Working hard and making big money is the dream. I'm not saying my company forces me to not take the vacation time. Heck they try to tell us all to use it more! (PTO is a liability on the books, FYI). But culturally, it's just not a priority (as in our countries culture, not the company itself). I realize it makes no sense. I need to make it more of a priority. My original point is my friends who are ex-pats on the EU seem to have a culture of using that time being more important than working.

Edit: I'm not sure why I'm being down voted. I'm mostly sharing what I see and feel. Your milage definitely may vary and I hope it does!

[terwey]

Work to live, don't live to work.

Your company at the end of the day doesn't care about you, those 5 weeks you could've spend on a trip doing a hike or just chill on the beach. That is what you'll remember later in life. That deadline you crushed, your boss enjoyed but won't be remembered in a few years, and if your "team needed you" comes up, your company overworks you and needs to hire additional staff.

[trcollinson]

I don't disagree. And I mean this much more generally, I have worked quite a long time for quite a lot of companies. The amount of PTO that is given up, which I was privy to, was staggering.

The interesting thing is I used to try to force people who worked for me to take more time off and they would complain. I think in many ways it was the example I set, which was bad, of always working. It's a regret I honestly have. I'm also happy now that I am just an individual contributor. I don't have to try to change that culture anymore. I only need to change me.

[ingvul]

> In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year).

Care to elaborate? Especially the part about vacation. Do you mean that US developers will retire early than their European counterparts because they are earning more in average and by doing so will enjoy more free time? I'd rather prefer to enjoy my free time when I'm in my 20s and 30s than when I'm in my 40s, 50s, etc.

The part about the health coverage: well, that's the thing, you never know if you'll deal with expensive or rare illness... so the European way of health coverage is worth it.

[novok]

In the US as a software developer you can and do get more vacation than the US norm, so keep that in mind.

[ergocoder]

There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe.

I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

[ingvul]

The average salary for a Software Engineer is $107K per year in United States.

The average salary for a Software Engineer is $66K per year in Germany (~61% less).

Source: indeed and payscale.

I always find a bit funny when US devs in HN talk about getting salaries above $200K/year... when the average US dev gets half of that. (I find it funny because everybody here thinks we are above the average dev level and can get a job at Facebook/Google/Amazon/etc... which is statistically incorrect).

[jldugger]

Well, IDK where I fit on the skill curve but... my total comp is personally well above that line. There's definitely a bi-modal effect with tech companies issuing RSUs that appreciate dramatically vs. random insurance company or telco.

[bcrosby95]

> RSUs that appreciate dramatically

Well, yeah, luck certainly can factor in. There was a year I made around 1.35 million in total comp due to luck like this. Nowadays I mostly make around 150k.

[ergocoder]

It feels more like you choose the job you like because you are already rich.

I'm sure you can join one of the FAANGs and get, at least, $300k/year easily.

If I have a few millions in my bank, I'd definitely join an interesting startup with no regard to compensation.

1.3m/year definitely has some luck involved. 500k/year is probably less luck. Just joined one of the hot tech companies and stay for 4 years. You have to be unlucky to not get to 500k/year.

[thecleaner]

Wrong math. 61 percent of the US average. Not 61 percent less.

[ergocoder]

I'm talking more about the possibility, not average.

It's much easier to achieve 500k/year in Bay Area than in Europe.

500k/year can be achieved by being a senior engineer at one of the successful companies for a few years. The stock growth should take care of that, easily. There are probably like 100 of successful companies in Bay Area between 2010 to 2020.

There are thousands of people achieving this in Bay Area.

In Europe, the base salary is lower. The stock comp is also lower. If you are a regular IC, these 2 always go together. You would need a much higher stock growth. This level of compensation is rarely heard of that it seems impossible.

[2rsf]

> There are thousands of people achieving this in Bay Area.

thousands ? out of how many ? seems like a tiny fraction

[ergocoder]

Sure, but it's more attainable/possible when compared to other occupations, say, doctors, lawyers, footballers, and etc.

Way more attainable.

[smabie]

Who says everyone here can't get a job paying 300k or whatever? Why is that statistically incorrect? Moreover, median != mean due to lefthand skew of the salary distribution of developers. Also probably excess kurtosis as well.

[sdevonoes]

I guess they mean that:

- number of software engineers in the US: X - number of software engineers in HN: Y - number of software engineers working for FAANG-like companies: N

Where X >>>> Y >> N. So, yes, I also think that everyone here can't get a job paying 300K or higher not because we are not skilled enough but by simple math.

[quantumofalpha]

> There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe.

Proprietary trading shops in London at the top end or L6+ at Google Zurich can pay that in total comp.

> I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

And what about stocks? There should be at least another 100k in them. Facebook is a publicly tradable company, its RSUs are as good as cash, unlike startup paper money.

[ergocoder]

Sure, but the base salary for the React creator shouldn't be that low.

That's like a new grad engineer at twitter if we simply compare base salary.

[euengtaway50]

That's 100k pounds, not dollars, and he's making more in RSUs. I also imagine he's an E5, because E6 salaries in London are higher than that.

To be honest, given how Facebook works, all the work he does in React/Redux is probably hindering him in terms of getting promotions.

[ergocoder]

$100k pounds ($130k) is still too low for the React creator.

When I was a new grad 8 years ago, my base salary was $120k already.

Unless he got a special deal, for an IC, the stock is proportional to the base salary. If your base salary is low, your stock will also be low.

[quantumofalpha]

Why the focus on base salary alone? Total (liquid) compensation is what matters, as the high paying places tend to be either equity (FAANGs) or bonus (finance) heavy. And 200k+ GBP TC is very good pay for UK market, probably 99th percentile

[slap]

For reference, Dan Abramov's tweet regarding his salary in London :

https://twitter.com/dan_abramov/status/1228454264915271683

[cmarschner]

It is absolutely possible at FAANG companies (eg partner level at MS, principal level at G) and other publicly traded (US) companies or startups. Most of it is in stock.

[ojbyrne]

I would guess that his total compensation is probably 2-5x that.

[cmdshiftf4]

$100k or £100k?

[ergocoder]

£100k but that's like $130K USD which is a new grad engineer at, say, Twitter.