[justathrowa]

>Do you have any kind of meaningful social connections outside of work?

No, but that's been the status quo so I was a child.

Wouldn't having a social circle that cause more problems though? Suicide's main issue is the distress it causes for social connections. No circle, no problems.

[TempNoConflict]

When I was child I moved around schools a lot, eventually I stopped trying to make friends. As life went on I distanced myself from family and what few friends I had.

I ended up horribly depressed for years, never really understanding why. I was young enough when I started down this path that I wasn't really conscious of the decisions I was making and its impact on my emotional wellbeing, it was just an internalized reaction to losing my friends over and over.

When I stopped trying to make friends I let my ability to form meaningful connections rot. Being around people made me sad because I wouldn't let anyone know me and that made me feel misunderstood, like I didn't belong. And being alone all the time just would sap all colour from life.

I made a conscious effort to be more forthcoming and open with people last year and its made a world of difference for me. I'm still pretty miserable, somedays can be pretty rough, but life is more than just sadness and emptiness now.

I only realized this when I started smoking pot constantly outside of work. It helped me calm down and see things for what they really were. I wouldn't outright recommend becoming a pothead like me, especially if you have mental issues, since it can be dangerous but I'd strongly recommend talking to a professional.

I was in such an awful state of mind that I couldn't think rationally even though I was convinced I was. You're more than your emotions, you're more than your thoughts, that's just a state of being. If you want to change those aspects of your life, as an Adult, it falls on you to seek treatment. Please seek treatment if you feel you need it. There are people who want to help.

[robinsonhuso]

Your post resonates so much with me that I created an account just to reply.

I also have trouble building meaningful relationships with people. I know exactly what you mean when you say that it makes you feel alone even when you're around people and that it saps all color from life. Recently, I have also made the connection to me moving around a lot as a kid. I think this might have subconsciously taught me that people come and go and so it's not worth it to invest time and effort into building relationships with them. I was also an outcast in middle school and even though I didn't really mind then I now believe that I built up a thick shell around myself during that time.

Can you say more about your efforts to be more forthcoming and open? I have tried that, but I'm constantly worried about oversharing. I have to consciously assure myself that I'm allowed to talk about myself. Part of the problem seems to be that I can't help but feel like the people that I think of as good friends see me as more of an acquaintance.

[TempNoConflict]

I remember one troubled young man in one of my University classes. One of my classmates signed to me killing himself with a finger gun to his head when he was partnered with that guy. People thought he was weird and avoided him. He'd talk about how his therapist mentioned he should be more open with others, how he was struggling with personal issues. Clearly he was oversharing. But I fucking adored listening to that guy. It was like looking in a mirror. I still think about him now and then. If he was in a support group for depressed people I'm sure he'd have been a hit. In another context it would not have been oversharing. Very friendly guy. Sadly I never bothered to even say hello, something I really regret.

I went to a bar last week for a burger to bring home. The lady behind the bar pointed out how my hands were trembling, even more than hers normally do. I told her I drink too much caffeine and sometimes forget to eat. She told me she gets that. I went back next week, hoping to eat in instead and make some small talk with her but the bar was too busy. I'm interested in getting to know more about her, she might have struggled with the same things as me. Found it interesting that she mentioned and related to my trembling hands somehow, most people never mention it. She might enjoy listening to my personal struggles as much as I enjoyed listening to that guy back in university. Or maybe she just wants better tips. I'll have to play around in a conversation and try to feel it out. Most likely this will go absolutely nowhere. I've had similar encounters throughout this year and usually the person is just trying to be nice but you never know. The food is good at least.

I've been paying someone for about half a year to teach me an instrument. He really enjoys music. He mentioned teaching some Christmas music around December. I talked a bit about the music I listened to during Christmas growing up. How when I was young I once dressed up in a traditional costume and sung traditional songs with other kids. I asked about how he celebrated Christmas when he was younger. He seemed to enjoy hearing how music has played a role in my life, I enjoyed listening to how it played a role in his.

A janitor stopped me last week at my workplace. Told me a funny anecdote from his life about an escalator, a lady and his son. I didn't really care about the personal aspects since I'm younger and don't have a family but I enjoyed the laugh. I've been trying to think of a joke from my life that I could share with him next time I run across the guy. He probably won't care about my depression unless there's a laugh there. But that's ok, I don't care about whatever struggles he may have had while raising his son. I can't relate to that part of him.

These are three people that I currently genuinely look forward to seeing again. Hoping to share aspects of my life with them whether it's about a struggle, a song or a laugh. It has been so many years since I looked forward to talking to someone. I'm finding that if you're vulnerable and open about things the other person can relate to they tend to find it endearing. If you're vulnerable and open about things other person can't relate to, or worse looks down on, then you're tending towards oversharing.

Once covid is over and larger gatherings are safer I will go around the city going to where the musicians go. Whether it's a jam at a park or a live show in a dark dingy room. There's plenty of songs written by horribly depressed people, sometimes it feels like my soul vibrates listening to that kind of music. I'm sure someone out there feels like that too. I will go looking for them, I will find them and we will make beautiful sounds well into a warm summer night. That's my goal for this year.

I've been trying to use the pot as a tool to play therapist and act on changes I feel need to be made. I've had a bad experience with a therapist in the past and it's one of the reasons I don't want to go back. It would probably be much easier if I wasn't doing this alone. A good therapist will be able to help you find ways of not just being more open and forthcoming but doing so appropriately and comfortably. You should feel excited and happy to share things with people you know, it shouldn't make you feel stressed or anxious.

edit: "Part of the problem seems to be that I can't help but feel like the people that I think of as good friends see me as more of an acquaintance."

Personally I try not to label my relationships with people, I'd struggle with it as well. Instead I try to let our interactions dictate our relationship rather than my expectations/desires. I met some people last year that were into video games / board games. We seemed to get along, were friendly with each other. I work on video games so I love talking about them. When I tried to organize something we could do together I got crickets. It is what it is.

[tekkk]

No, it's the isolation that is way more harmful. Sure you can be alone even with social connections if they are superficial, but we humans are hard-wired to seek community and social connections to validate our existence. Similar to working, I guess, but which is more mentally healthier and productive.

Yet building those social connections is definitely not an easy task. Once you have been molded to a certain shape to rewire your mental patterns and the emotional rewarding system is very difficult. You have to be persistent in building those friendships until you at some point achieve a level of rapport that, hopefully, allows you to be completely yourself around another person.

But no one can really give you the answers how to approach solving the problem. My advice is to seek venues of expressing yourself to find like-minded people who think the same at a deep, instinctive level. I whole-heartedly recommend performing arts, like improvisational theatre, which forces to play like a child. There is something there that I think is very rejuvenating when you can just fool around and laugh. Also you can't really think of anything else when you are performing.

I'd say the most difficult part of the whole problem is that you can't remove your emotions from solving your problem and therefore you can't make the most rational choices as you subconsciously avoid failure. But I encourage you to keep trying. Seeking professional help would also be advisable.

[axxxo93]

No, my friend. Suicide's main issue is that you will be dead. I urge you to talk to a professional. You don't have to feel this way.

[justathrowa]

Is it?

The dead cannot feel joy, love, pain, or sadness. They cannot perceive anything, nor can the be aware of anything; one second in time is exactly the same as a billion years to the dead. And you cannot do anything to the dead that would change that.

Barring the possibility of an afterlife, if nothing can affect the dead, and the dead are unaware of everything, what could possibly be the dead's problem?

The living on the other hand? They would be the one that would perceive the dead's absence, and mourn it. They are the ones that have to deal with the uncertainty of what death is. Or the questions of why someone would prefer death.

But there in lies the key point; someone has to perceive the death of a peer to mourn it. Let's say for a moment that there is only one person in the universe and he dies. Who mourns for him? Like wise, if someone exists, and no one else is aware, who mourns for him after he dies? In either case, he cannot mourn for himself.

So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or is it more the concern of those still alive?

[jolmg]

> So really... is being dead a problem for the dead? Or is it more the concern of those still alive?

I wouldn't weigh them. It could go either way.

The problem for the dead is the loss of opportunity. The waste. If I have some amount of cash in my wallet, what I'm able to do with it will depend on the market that's available to me. Maybe I won't be able to afford the same things others do in other places, but I should be able to take some advantage of it. Dying is dropping that cash down the gutter. It's utterly wasteful, to put it politely.

Doing the same with your time alive is even more so because you can't get it back.

Even the most minimal use of your 5 senses is a good use. Even dreaming while sleep is a good use. Even just thinking is a good use. The opportunity to use that time for anything at all is lost when you die.

I'm sure there must be someone that would love to be in your shoes. You say you got your pay reduced by $10,000 a year. I know people that likely make only 1/4 of that a year. Then there's the terminally ill. The envy! How luxurious of you to not want your life.

At the very least, couldn't you seek someone terminally ill and live to fulfill their dream? Live the life they wanted? It could be a simple one. Doesn't matter if you don't manage to fulfill it, just part-way is fine. Someone else might be able to continue from where you left off if that happens. And it's not like you're planning on doing something else anyway.

[justathrowa]

>The problem for the dead is the loss of opportunity. The waste. If I have some amount of cash in my wallet, what I'm able to do with it will depend on the market that's available to me. Maybe I won't be able to afford the same things others do in other places, but I should be able to take some advantage of it. Dying is dropping that cash down the gutter. It's utterly wasteful, to put it politely.

I disagree. Go outside someday and pick up a stone. Chances are there are no other stones exactly like it in the entirety of the universe. Perhaps someday it could inspire something great, or be used to end someone's life. But realistically it will likely just be a rock that sits there. Just like millions of other rocks.

Assuming the best is a romantic notion, but you just don't know either way. But ask yourself this... if that rock were to suddenly vanish from existence, would your life really be any worse for it? Or could you just find another rock?

>At the very least, couldn't you seek someone terminally ill and live to fulfill their dream? Live the life they wanted? It could be a simple one. Doesn't matter if you don't manage to fulfill it, just part-way is fine

...Imagine you saw someone doing something that you loved. But you could see on their face that, at best, they derived no joy from it. At worst they didn't want to be there, that it was something outside of their control that compelled them.

Forget the other person for a moment. Could you honestly say that seeing that would make you happy?

FWIW I did look into being a living organ donor. There's a rather extensive psychological evaluation that goes with it though and you need to have a fairly strong social support circle for them to even entertain the idea. Can't imagine why a bunch of doctors wouldn't want someone that has no support circle to undergo a major surgery that would leave them too weak to do much on their own for weeks and very much vulnerable to a potentially lethal post operation infection.

[jolmg]

> I disagree... if that rock were to suddenly vanish from existence, would your life really be any worse for it? Or could you just find another rock?

I'm not sure how your point counts as a disagreement. You're telling me about how unessential you are, and I don't see how that matters. Nearly everybody is unessential. Heck, being "essential" depends on other people's opinion, and I don't see how their opinion matters either. There's nobody in the world that's really essential.

Before the needs of the world comes the needs of oneself. Though we can enjoy being important to others, nobody needs that to enjoy life. It's just one way to do it.

There's nothing wrong with a mundane life either. Many people even covet for a simple, ordinary life. I did. I was dealt a bad hand (perhaps avoidable/fixable with more effort by me, though that's in hindsight), that I thought I was going to have to live with for the rest of my life. I learned to accept it, commit to it, and enjoy what I still had available to enjoy. Things got better to my surprise and dismay (yes, it was very conflicting), but I would have been fine even if it didn't.

Even members of the lowest social/economic classes laugh heartedly at times and have their own ways to enjoy their time.

> Imagine you saw someone doing something that you loved... Could you honestly say that seeing that would make you happy?

I was trying to write in broad terms. Their wish might not be because the act would make them happy. Rather, one can wish for a task they want done. Even if the person doing it doesn't enjoy it, if it gets the task any closer to completion, then that could make them happy.

As an example, if someone dying is worrying about the care of a dependent loved one, taking steps to care for that dependent person would make them happy no matter how much you might hate it. There's no completion to it either. Any amount of care would be welcomed, I think.

> FWIW I did look into being a living organ donor.

If your health isn't so bad that you're close to dying, then that's also very wasteful in my opinion. You can achieve more with a healthy body. Leave the donation until after you die. There'll always be someone in need of an organ. Even if you provide one now, that'll just leave someone in the future without an organ you could have provided then.

You seem fixated on the happiness of others. Can't you be a little more selfish? You should be able to enjoy life on your own. Actually, you should be able to enjoy it even if you were the only living being on this planet. Even in those circumstances, I think I'd lack time to fully enjoy life. I'd probably spend my time either studying something to make sense of the world or developing skills. That'd be my enjoyment even if there's no one to acknowledge me. I hear others enjoy the feeling of aching muscles after a day's work. I imagine they'd enjoy building stuff, maybe a garden. With the abundance of things we have, it's a matter of choosing the best way to spend our time rather than having trouble finding anything at all. Can't you find a hobby? There's an infinitude of things to enjoy.

Re: finding another rock. You don't need to be irreplaceable to be loved. You can be the support of someone that would appreciate it and find joy that way, too.

Though if work works, then I think that's good too. I had written these other comments on that:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767695

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25767160

[justathrowa]

Not so much essentially as it the futility of imagining unrealized potential. In hindsight I now realize that my example was exceedingly poor, and apologize for that. Many people, including, speak to said that potential as if it were an inevitably good and I find that speculation to be someone taking a terribly romanticized view of someone. Especially after they were gone. Just as much as someone is capable of being great, so too could they be capable of being a disappointment.

And if you talk about potential, I'd also argue that no matter how much waste there is, there's enough numbers in the world to take it's place readily.

>If your health isn't so bad that you're close to dying, then that's also very wasteful in my opinion. You can achieve more with a healthy body. Leave the donation until after you die. There'll always be someone in need of an organ. Even if you provide one now, that'll just leave someone in the future without an organ you could have provided then.

Perhaps but bear in mind that it probably be just the one. Organ donation campaigners harp over and over again that one donor could give back life to multiple people. So is it a waste? It becomes more the trolley question more then anything else; if one person dying could save six others, is him not choosing the die the same as choosing to kill them?

>You seem fixated on the happiness of others. Can't you be a little more selfish?

I'm not sure what you mean. I am being selfish. A selfless man would've conformed to what others demanded and endured in solitary silence no matter what, doing all and asking nothing in return.

[jolmg]

Even if I comment on other stuff, I'm still going to be watching this thread in case you want to talk.

[tasuki]

Fully agree with everything you wrote here. It isn't a problem to be not-living. I was not-living long before I was born, and it was never a problem.

I understand you feel your life isn't worth living. It is very much possible (though not easy) to change that. As the others have said, please talk to a professional. I don't know you, but you seem like a bright, thoughtful person. Humanity needs you.

[robotresearcher]

> what could possibly be the dead's problem?

Opportunity cost.

[chickenfries]

The main problem with suicide is that it forecloses the possibility that your life will get better. And it can. The fact that you care about leaving your connections in distress tells me you care for people. This is normal and good and makes you human. We need human connection to live. Even now, you take others feelings into account. You seem like a good person, and the world would be worse without you.

[randomswede]

You have a social circle, with social connections.

People you work with. Possibly customers. They would be affected.

I still occasionally mourn the death (wildlife traffic accident) of a colleague from a former workplace. That was 22 years ago, and there is this one interesting technical discussion that I wanted to have with them, that I will now never have. As a result, that coding project has not had a single byte changed in that time, because doing so pretty much requires having that discussion.

This was a person I only interacted with at work (or at work functions).