[josephg]

I hear what you're saying and I appreciate that perspective. I agree, and there's also something slippery in that argument taken to its extreme that we need to be careful of.

Some people here on HN made the same argument when Equifax leaked personal information about millions of americans. They said it was ultimately management's fault and not the engineers' fault for not allocating enough resources to security. And the same argument was used by the engineers who made the Therac-25 radiology machine. In that case, software bugs resulted in a handful of deaths due to lethal radiation.

Upper management can't be responsible for everything that happens in their business. Engineering isn't their job or their expertise. Thats why they hire software engineers and security engineers - to be the local experts. We need to bear responsibility for the decisions we make in our field. And engineers have a duty not just to the companies we work for, but also to society at large. If we leave our personal judgement at the door in the morning, we fail in our duty to society.

To go back to the bridge metaphor, if a bridge falls down, its not good enough for the civil engineers involved to blame management for not giving them enough time / budget / whatever. They also bear some responsibility for the disaster. This has been enshrined in case law too, at the Nuremberg trials. "I was just doing my job" wasn't considered a good enough excuse for the guards in WW2 concentration camps. These are big examples, but I think the principle is fractally true.

And the inverse also holds. Praise and blame go together. The biomedical engineers in the labs also deserve praise for the covid19 vaccines they've invented, even if upper management told them to do it. We aren't management's slaves.

[marcus0x62]

The difference, when it comes to civil engineers and building bridges, is we as a society have recognized their expertise and made it illegal to build a bridge except as designed by a civil engineer.

A more apt analogy, in my opinion, to the day to day realities of managing production applications and infrastructure is the regulation surrounding the maintenance of certified aircraft. There are minimum competency standards that are enforced by law, it is unlawful in almost all circumstances for a non-certified person to perform any maintenance or repair on a certified aircraft, and, crucially, an aircraft cannot return to service unless a certified mechanic signs off on the repair. Not the CEO of the company that owns the airplane, not some middle manager, only the expert (mechanic and, sometimes, inspector) can sign off on returning the plane to service.

Without that kind of legal cover, management can and will steamroll over anybody who is impeding their initiative of the day.

[josephg]

Sure; but politicians don’t know anything about technology. They usually don’t even decide what’s right and wrong. They take what culture has decided is right and wrong and codify it in law. The law is a trailing, not a leading indicator of ethical practice.

Do you think planes were falling out of the sky left and right before those air safety laws came into effect? No. The engineers at some companies pushed for sane, safe practices first. Later they were adopted by the industry and later still they were enshrined in law. Before those laws were passed, airlines still had a duty of care to their passengers, ethically and (I think) legally.

Likewise it’s up to us to decide what sane, secure software engineering looks like. Not politicians. Not management. It has to be us. Nobody else is qualified to make those choices. At some point those ideas might be codified in law; but we need to figure out what that looks like first. (And to be clear what you’re arguing for - imagine the reverse. Imagine if inventing security best practices was outsourced to politicians!)

The idea that management should feel free to steamroll over their own employees’ judgement for the sake of the initiative of the day is toxic. And that’s exactly the sort of work culture which creates global security issues like this one. Of course a balance has to be reached, but you don’t do anyone any favours by being management (and the law’s) highly paid keyboard.

[marcus0x62]

> Do you think planes were falling out of the sky left and right before those air safety laws came into effect? No.

That is exactly what was happening. In 1924, prior to the introduction of the first federal aircraft safety regulations in 1926, there was 1 fatality per 13,500 miles for commercial flights. Between 2000 and 2010, the average was 0.2 fatalities per 10 billion passenger miles.

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2016/03/03/early-aviation-safety...

[josephg]

Thanks for those numbers!

Imagine yourself as an aeronautical engineer around that time. You have a sense of what good safety practices could look like - you’ve been to conferences and talked to your colleagues, and you have some thoughts yourself. But management at your airline doesn’t want to spend the money.

Would you argue for meekly going along with management’s choices, knowing those choices will kill people? I would say, if you did, you would have blood on your hands. We’re people first and employees second.

The stakes are lower and there’s a middle ground here. But you have a voice, and usually more power than you think. The siren song of dumping all responsibility for your actions onto upper management makes you into a victim and a child. It’s bad for society, usually bad for your company in the long term and bad for your psychological health and development. And a disaster for your professional development.

I don’t know if that lands with you, but it’s certainly a lesson I wish I could give to myself over a decade ago.

[dublin]

Keep in mind that although that regulatory certification approach does indeed increase security, it can also greatly constrain innovation. It's most appropriate once systems have matured a bit.

FWIW, there was an average of one steam boiler explosion EVERY WEEK in America (frequently with loss of life) when the ASME was founded to set standards for safe design and certification. So it can take considerable pain before efforts like take off. The FAA had the advantage of already having that kind of certification as an already established model, plus airlines were eager to have a stamp of safety approval.

It's hard to see how a "security certification" standard could really provide much assurance in today's world - witness the inadequacy of FIPS, SOC, the outright laughable HIPAA, etc. PCI is one of the only certs that really provides any kind of assurance, but it's driven by the banks that insist on it being there to protect themselves. And recent events have shown that we have way too much centralized control of electronic payments processing already...

[josephg]

Those regulations wouldn’t be needed if our industry could govern itself and act in healthy, responsible ways.

Unethical data collection leads to regulation, which leads to less innovation in the long term. Fight for ethical behaviour in your company and team and we can, en masse, delay the need for that.

And as for regulation, if it were up to me I’d make EULAs mostly unenforceable. Which would give leave for the people and companies affected by security breaches like this to sue anyone and everyone responsible. Which, by the way, is how the law is designed and how it works in every other facet of life. Sell a faulty ladder that kills someone? Get sued for negligence.

[citiguy]

But senior management is responsible for establishing the resource budget and dictating the requirements. Given infinite resources, conceivably an engineering team could make an infinitely secure product. But nobody has that (except maybe the military). Like all other computer problems, this comes down to the constraints and requirements.