[Imnimo]

When teaching new students Java, the first step is "type these exact lines character for character, you won't understand what they mean for the next year, but you need to type them at the start of every new program.", which can be a little rough.

[tpoacher]

that's a fault with the teaching method, not the language.

[rottc0dd]

You have to create a class with main method, just to start. And you need to know, what are access specifiers, what are classes and static methods. Of course, you can just ignore them as something you just have to do, but I think buy design OOP is not an additional requirement but starting point in Java.

But, it is not like you have to use them, in that case why start with a complex language as a beginner anyway? It will either be too much of details or too much of magic to remember.

(Digression : in my beginner days I was using C as a glorified assembly language with control flow redirection only through, (wait for it) goto. Even after grew up to 700 lines. Only while doing a java port I got used to using methods because java does not have goto)

[koolba]

Not anymore! With Java 11 you can (finally) have top level code immediately execute as if it was run in main method. Only took 25 years.

[rottc0dd]

Well, I am not sure about Java 11. It took 25 years, yes and organization I work has just entered the java 8 world completely. It was originally written in Java 7 and it took 5 long years to completely transition to Java 8. Even then (Java got a repl now!!!), I am skeptical of the language in terms of beginner friendliness.

So, if you are going to read some code from the world you should be familiar with the archaic notations anyway. Even in frameworks, which java shops in neighborhood is mostly about, has intro docs with terms from almost 15 years ago and assumes people who read are aware of it. The thing that really bothers me (not that it is bad in an objective way) is how much old java platform has OOP encoded to its DNA. And it is great at it.

It is a language meant to be used by people who are familiar with writing such code. The FP is really enjoyable, but kind of ugly and seems retrofitted into the OOP. In general, I like opinionated crisp languages, but Java is getting away from that. In nutshell, it is disorienting for me now a days.

[chii]

no it's not. The language _requires_ those incantations, but to explain it all to a beginner requires a lot of time and effort which, to the student, doesn't look like any payoff (until they have internalized it completely, and understands their meaning).

It's the same as human learning natural languages - you have specific grammar and rules you _just_ follow, without understanding their etymology or how it evolved to be this way (and their uses).

[tpoacher]

And python requires its own boilerplate incantation. One is neither considerably less verbose than the other, nor any less cryptic. Both take exactly two lines. The python incantation simply "feels" simpler to you, because you as a seasoned programmer comprehend the 'intent' behind it as being simpler. But this is more likely to relate to our inability to perceive from a point of ignorance that which we already understand.

A good lesson could start by explaining what these do by way of dissection and for the purpose of orientation, without going down the rabbit hole.