[brundolf]

Right, and that's where the question gets muddy

Though again, Go as a whole seems ill-suited for scaling to larger projects because of lots of other limitations on its type system, reliance on conventions, implicit-defaults, etc. Which makes it well-suited to (and often used for) things like microservices, where each actual codebase is smallish. Codebases like these will tend towards having less "library-like" code anyway, which means they don't need generics as badly. There's synergy here in the language design.

So I guess what I'm saying is: leaving out generics seems like the more "Go-like" direction, will dovetail better with its overall philosophy, etc, and isn't without advantages. But it would also mean kneecapping the language when it comes to certain use-cases that it's never going to be great for anyway. It's the classic "opinionated" vs "everything for everybody" dichotomy

[enneff]

Funny you should say that, because go was specifically designed for large code bases. I work on a large go code base and it’s great.

https://talks.golang.org/2012/splash.article

[philosopher1234]

Why do you say Go has trouble scaling to large code bases? Is that something you'd expect, or something borne out by the evidence? And if so, what is the evidence?

[brundolf]

It's the subjective impression I've formed from, among other things, reading articles like this:

https://fasterthanli.me/articles/aiming-for-correctness-with...

Ctrl+F for "Let's start with Go" to jump to the relevant part

[philosopher1234]

FWIW I would take fasterthanli.me with a grain of salt. The guy is a serial Go hater. His points stand on their own, but I don't think he appreciates Go's benefits. I think "A Philosophy of Software Design," Rob Pike's talks, or Russ Cox's blog posts are a good place to look if you want to understand what is valuable about Go and the reason to believe it would actually scale very well to large codebases.

[brundolf]

Thanks for the references, I'll look at what the other side has to say

I am aware that fasterthanli.me can be a bit, shall we say... opinionated. Though as you say, his points do stand on their own. I can see the things he points out about the design philosophy of Go's language features and standard library and draw parallels to languages and libraries that I've used firsthand, and had firsthand frustrating experiences with when it came to navigating their magical behavior and lack of enforcement of contracts. But I'll keep an open-mind

[philosopher1234]

Certainly. As a counter-example to the pain of implicit functionality, take the UNIX file API. `open(1), write(1), close(2)...` represent hundreds of thousands of lines of code, spanning network devices, local file storage, integrity checking, and who knows what else, and all of it is hidden. It is precisely the mountainous heap of implicit behavior that gives these APIs value.

That being said, APIs with implicit function that are broken or surprising are painful, but I take this not as an indictment of implicit function, but as an indictment of buggy APIs. I think state and hidden functionality is the essential ingredient of highly useful code.