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by Aardwolf 1980 days ago
One issue: if you lose access to your email, you also lose access to your worthy steam account, since it emails a code every time
3 comments

Email access is required for self-service account recovery, but there are plenty of other documented methods:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5421-QTF...

Hmm, what I mean is, I open up Steam on my Linux system. Usually it remembered my login but sometimes I need to login again. If I then type my password, it says: "type the code we emailed to continue".

So if I wouldn't have access to that email account, I couldn't login and lose the Steam account, even when knowing the password.

Although, some of the methods from the link would still work, so that's solved, I guess.

Except that even if you use Steam Mobile you can't turn off email-based "self-service account recovery" in Steam. Your email account is always going to be the final key to control of your account.
Which is why my email accounts have warned me that every time a botnet cracks my Steam account password there are attempts to open what they think is my email account with the password they just cracked. My Steam account password these days is cracked scarily often, and I'm afraid my Steam account is now one of my weakest links in my online security footprint. I'm not dumb enough to use the same password for my email addresses as my Steam account, but the fact that Steam seems to be allowing password spray fast enough that machines keep cracking 50+ character passwords in days is alarming.

(ETA: Note the reason I mention 50+ is that I specifically vary the length randomly; when I don't the cracks drop to hours apart.)

I'm curious about what specific thing is signaling to you that your Steam password has been cracked. (I assume you mean brute forced?)

It's significantly more likely that you've been keylogged or phished if attackers are actually accessing your Steam account with passwords of that complexity.

The signal is Steam Guard emails.

I do assume it is brute force/password spray.

More details in sibling reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25739283

I don't understand how it can be possible to brute force a 50+ character password

with 5 bits per character (and assuming random characters, which is what you mean right?), that's 300 bits of entropy, nothing in the universe could brute force that

Most of those old password-length "time to crack" estimates are based on a single machine. Many of the common ones you see today are based on the added assumption that they aren't spraying directly at a password endpoint but are instead predicated on breaking the hashes and the extra (increasingly minimal in the age of Bitcoin) cycles needed to hash/salt/pepper the passwords and/or building rainbow tables.

I believe that the password spray capabilities of today's botnets on any endpoint that returns results as fast as network messages travel should not be underestimated in a distributed enough attack. Given that not-varying the password length had a noticeable impact on time, the warnings from my email providers, and other increasingly paranoid measures I've taken [0], I have no reason to suspect that this anything but a very distributed password spray attack.

Simple GitHub searches seem to indicate that there are known password spray capable Steam endpoints that currently still leak password correctness/verification data regardless of 2FA enabled (and also leak whether or not 2FA is enabled on the account) and always falls back to email-based 2FA. (These leaks and that fall back would have me believe it's one of the Password Recovery or 2FA Recovery endpoints.) Though I've not attempted to run such gists/"utility libraries" myself to verify (I'm too lawful neutral/not a black hat whatsoever), at a surface level it seems like more than enough evidence to suggest botnets would use such things if enough people were posting "helpful password recovery tools" on GitHub that password spray accounts you tell it to.

[0] The paranoia has gotten quite "fun":

- I only ever sign in to Steam now inside the Steam client and Steam Mobile app.

- I disabled all OAuth applications on my account, no longer sign in under any web browser, and have refused to allow new applications.

- I've removed all devices except my primary gaming desktop and mobile device.

- I've removed all credit card data that I can and haven't bought or paid for anything directly in the Steam client in years.

- There's evidence that password hashes used to be leaked from a file in the Steam client's folder. (I believe that file no longer exists in recent Steam clients, at least.) For that reason, I've turned on Windows Controlled Folder Access (aka Windows Ransomware Protection) on all of my Steam folders. This has been an amazing bundle of joy~ and has basically stopped me from playing Steam games. Games are developed by children and it is amazing the number of entry point binaries a single game might have to run, how often even "offline only" games still want to run binaries they copy or bury in random places in %LocalAppData% or worse %Temp%. The whack-a-mole to enable games to run under Controlled Folder Access becomes its own very not fun minigame before you can actually start the real game. (It's also really interesting to see what some games do when they fail to get folder access they just assume they'll always have. So many permutations of "the game works but crashes at weird points" or "the game thinks it is running on a Mac for stupid reasons" or "the game thinks you intentionally want to run it without the ability to save or load saves, because that's a thing people might do?".)

My paranoia suggests my next steps are only to isolate Steam to its own entirely separate user account on the machine and/or its own unique VPN.

My basic threat modeling assumes if they were compromising anything specific outside of Steam, they'd have compromised my email accounts already.

At this point it increasingly feels like the only reason I keep Steam installed is to reset the password every time I get a Steam Guard email.

I have no stakes in defending Steam, but—you realize that if someone were cracking passwords left and right for years then the web would be full of complaints like yours? Everyone would know that it's a thing that's happening. Eternal questions would be pondered to the sound of Guard notifications, lovers would gaze at stars with faint notificationing in the background, and musicians and poets would compose songs to that tune.

Frankly a keylogger on your laptop sounds more plausible.

Not even a computer the size of the solar system is going to brute-force a 300-bit key. There's something else going on.

https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/82389/calculate...

Firstly, you seem to believe that password hashes provide only a small reserve of difficulty compared to the abilities of current computers. That's not so. Just read or watch any introduction on hashes: the most basic principle is that even with a huge cluster of top-of-the line hardware, it would take billions of years to guess a password of a decent length. When hash algorithms are ‘broken’, like with md5 and sha1, it's because newly found weaknesses bring down their strength by a factor of billions.

Secondly, you seem to conjecture that attempting password guesses against a network service would somehow bring that difficulty down considerably, to reachable levels. However: local hash guesses are made on GPUs or specialized FPGAs, whereas servers run on regular multi-purpose CPUs—plus, if you had a server respond to login attempts nonstop, it would spend half of the time in context switches and kernel calls. Top http frameworks in pure C reach just over a million responses per second when doing nothing but sending empty responses. You're asking that Steam dedicate a fleet of thousands of servers to facilitate cracking your password. And on top of that, the service would also need a database that likewise serves billions of requests a second.

Additionally, modern hash algorithms like bcrypt are constructed so that they take considerable and configurable time (on any hardware), so the hashing rates are on the order of tens of thousands a second or less, instead of billions and trillions. Since Steam are evidently very concerned with account security, I'd guess they take advantage of these algorithms—and since you changed the password recently, it was probably hashed with the latest used algorithm.

Besides all of the above, a service easily foils password guesses by limiting the number of attempts against an account in a time span, which is by now one of the basic prescribed measures. The whole purpose of ‘password spraying’ is to sidestep this limitation by attacking a lot of users but using most common passwords. In no way does it help with guessing a single long random password.

Lastly, while it's conceivable that Steam could have some vulnerabilities that would make cracking its accounts easier, those wouldn't be burned by attacking the same accounts over and over for months.

To sum up: the whole magnitude of the task is such that no one would solve it just to steal your trinkets, even if they could. It's time to accept that either your passwords are easily guessable, or are lifted from you in some way.

Doesn't the steam mobile app provide access codes?
It does
However, near as I can figure, it offers no way to provision a second device with the same seed (or store the seed).

It's one of two sites that I use TFA for that I don't have a backup for, which is mildly annoying. I do have recovery codes, and will all too happily fall back on SMS.

How does that one authenticate itself then?

(NOTE: I didn't even know the PC gaming service steam had a mobile app ;))

For me, when I download Steam Authenticator it's tied to my phone number so the first time I login it will send me a text message code, and then from there it generates the authenticator codes in app
To be precise they've implemented their own version of TOTP.
Well in the scenario where you lose access to your email address you would theoretically still have access to your phone with the steam app already installed and authenticated
That's not true, I lost access to my email a couple years ago, and support was able to get me my account back.