[ganafagol]

Ok sure. That's like saying time dilation is a physics failure in newtonian physics. Technically correct, and entirely unhelpful to solve the problem.

The problem here being that writing "based purely on the market forces (i.e. excluding carbon taxes) coal is still a very viable option." suggests that since we all want free markets we'll need to accept this. No we don't.

We also don't say "well purely on human nature forces we'll have a few alpha males who keep a harem of women and try to kill all competition that's not submissive". Technically correct, but entirely unhelpful to find a way how to move forward.

A free market needs rules. "Free market" does not equate "do whatever you want". Without rules that are enforced, you don't have freedom either.

[whatshisface]

I think the source of the confusion here is a massive positive esteem laid on the two words "free market," which confuse people into thinking that anything good has to be labeled a free market. Labeling a system that requires government intervention a "free-market" mechanism is, just like in your example, just as much of a misuse of language as labeling quantum mechanics a Newtonian mechanism. Minimum wages, antitrust action, taxes, bans, sanctions, and subsidies are all examples of interventions in free markets, and they can be good or bad, just like the features of the state of nature (a free market) can be good and bad in different situations.

I'm really against this idea of redefining the baseline so that whatever policy choices we like are defined as the absence of subsidies and the presence of a free market. Subsidies are when the government intervenes to give money to those who trade in certain goods. Intervention is defined as doing anything other than letting people sort it out for themselves. Likewise, a free market is not one where everything we don't like is banned, it is a market where there are no constraints on the participants' process of trade and price determination.

[ganafagol]

A free market needs government intervention. Somebody else mentioned enforcement of rules. I think that's exactly right.

Might sound paradoxical at first, but what would you get without enforcement?

[whatshisface]

>what would you get without enforcement?

You would get the societies depicted in Snowcrash and Cyberpunk 2077. People would hire private security to perform the security tasks they need, just like multinationals do in third world countries. If you don't want that to happen, one has no choice but to restrict the freedom of at least one market. (The market for mercenaries.) Some countries go further and restrict other markets, for example the markets for weapons. It does not make any sense to call gun control a free-market mechanism, that's just not the right use of the term.

[ganafagol]

Ok I think I'm beginning to see where you are coming from.

Thanks for the debate!

[slashdev]

A free market with rules is not technically a free market in the economic sense of the term.

In reality all human markets have rules and the ideal free market doesn't exist (nor is it ideal in any non theoretical sense.)

I think you're just confused about the terminology here, you're using a different definition to everybody else.

My feeling is you're equating free market to capitalism, but you can't do that.