[Jochim]

1. Is evidence that the mail man should be disciplined or fired, not of a mountain of fraud.

2. You've literally proved my point about ignoring any kind of context with this one. The title intentionally misrepresents what is happening from the outset by misqualifying the containers ballots are regularly stored in as suitcases. It's not attempting to raise a concern about the election process, it's attempting to incense people with a particular ideology. This is further reinforced when you entirely ignore the testimony of anyone with any knowledge of how the ballot counting process is carried out, including ignoring the fact that any of the independent observers that the officials alleged to have left of their own volition could easily challenge that claim at any point.

3/4. All you've done here is prove that the methods already in place are effective at catching people who try to cast a dead person's vote.

Throughout this you've entirely ignored the fact that these discrepancies have been brought to people's attention and that they are either pure conjecture or on the level of individual misconduct. Any actions required to have /any/ effect whatsoever would be much more obvious and would have been put.

> I'll have presented evidence, and you won't have.

You've provided absolutely no evidence of the kind of mass fraud you're asserting has happened, once again isolated incidents will happen and in general they will be caught. Fraud mountain is a fiction of Trump's fucked up ego, and is evidenced by the fact that the absolutely overwhelming majority of votes have been agreed as legitimate by both independent and partisan observers.

[slumdev]

This is evidence of fraud. You're asserting without any evidence (as I predicted) that these are isolated incidents. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

We may never know the exact amount of fraud that occurred because the left, mass media, and establishment Republicans are intent on forging ahead with the so-called President-elect without conducting a robust investigation of the claims. At this point, it looks like the theft could be successful.

[Jochim]

You have no proof that any fraud exists beyond the small amounts that have been brought up or dismissed, yet you are repeatedly asserting that everything is thrown into doubt by the utterly insignificant instances you've brought up.

If a cashier is caught stealing you don't then assume the whole shop was stealing.

At this point you appear to be out to run an inquisition. You've decided there is a widespread heretic problem and now any deviance found are an excuse to overstate the problem further, even if they can be rationally explained.

I urge you to do some self reflection as to why you think the election was stolen because the arguments you're currently tangled up in are exactly what lead to the mess in the Capitol, an event which only made it more untenable for more moderate republicans to continue supporting you.

[slumdev]

If a cashier is caught stealing, you don't assume it's his first time. And you'd be wise to at least investigate whether his comrades have also been stealing. You'd be a complete idiot to assume that it was a single instance and no other theft is occurring in your shop.

[Jochim]

In this case the shop is full of security cameras and they've been watched by members of both parties as well as third parties.

Once again if fraud had taken place there has been enough scrutiny to turn up more than a single dodgy mail man and a counting station in georgia where no one who knows how the counting process works has challenged the explanation given.

Trump lost, he didn't like it and immediately denied he lost with zero evidence to the contrary. It was only afterwards that he went searching for any evidence that fit his narrative, fabricating it where there was none and catastrophising the cases where illegitimate votes were cast.

[slumdev]

> In this case the shop is full of security cameras and they've been watched by members of both parties as well as third parties.

This is false. Republicans were routinely denied the right to watch vote counts. In some cases, they were forced to stand more than six feet away "because of COVID", and in other cases, they were sent away entirely.

> Once again if fraud had taken place there has been enough scrutiny to turn up more than a single dodgy mail man and a counting station in georgia where no one who knows how the counting process works has challenged the explanation given.

I gave you examples. There are more examples at the "Here is the Evidence" web page. I'll post it, but I predict that you'll either ignore it or, instead, google for other web pages that "debunk" it.

https://hereistheevidence.com/

> Trump lost, he didn't like it and immediately denied he lost with zero evidence to the contrary.

Now you're making up a narrative that doesn't fit the facts.

You have attempted to effect an air of condescension multiple times in this conversation. If you truly believe that half the country is living under Trump's spell and needs to be freed, and you also believe that condescension is going to help win them over, then it is not your opponent who is in need of introspection.

[Jochim]

> Now you're making up a narrative that doesn't fit the facts.

The point I was making was that the assertion of "Winning the election" was made first, only when it became apparent that in fact he had not won the election did people start looking for evidence of fraud. Evidence was only gathered with the intention of supporting that fact and was then presented as proof of something much more widespread than it suggested. This has lead to things that are absolutely not evidence of fraud being conflated with acts of fraud.

The website you posted was torn apart elsewhere in this thread. From the outside it looks like a desperate grasping at straws.

> You have attempted to effect an air of condescension multiple times in this conversation. If you truly believe that half the country is living under Trump's spell and needs to be freed, and you also believe that condescension is going to help win them over, then it is not your opponent who is in need of introspection.

You've repeatedly refused to accept any criticism of your arguments throughout the conversation. Your evidence has been evidence of a few isolated incidents and fraud that has been detected by the safeguards already put in place. It is not evidence at all of any kind of widespread fraud.

The Capitol building was raided by Trump supporters directed there by the man himself. Inspired by this "stop the steal" rhetoric and calling for Mike Pence of all people to be hanged, they are being lead into a very dangerous situation that is not designed for their benefit. They are very much in need of some introspection before more of them die from this.