[1000units]

A dead woman on the floor with blood pooling out of her head sends a weaker message in this respect than an appropriately-decorated piece of cloth being raised? I suspect you may be a little too shaken by recent events to be thinking clearly. Thoughts and prayers, my friend.

[tsimionescu]

What we have seen conclusive proof of tonight is that police are happy to work with or at least to allow fascist mobs to storm the government, while they are willing to maim and kill leftist protesters against police brutality at the slightest signs of provocation.

The fact that a woman was shot by police in last night's protest is a tragedy, as all human life is precious. But a democracy can't bow down to mob rule for fear of violence. The protesters should have never even been allowed to get near the Capitol building while Congress was in session, and in that case perhaps this loss of life could have also been avoided.

Police brutality and the police culture of violence before other solutions is also something that has been discussed in leftist circles the entire year. It is a culture that must be changed, which will surely be a monumental task, if it even is attempted. Still, the alternative is not simply allowing mobs to attack federal institutions with impunity.

[tallanvor]

It's all the worse that the right is trying to paint her death as police brutality.

We need to be clear, she was shot while trying to force her way through a barricaded door when law enforcement was trying to safely get elected officials and other innocent people out of harm's way, and she was only shot after multiple warnings.

I fully agree that the terrorists shouldn't have been allowed into the building, but it happened, and given that, if this isn't a textbook example of a situation where law enforcement was justified in using lethal force, I'm not sure what is.

[pjc50]

> the right is trying to paint her death as police brutality.

.. have they bothered taking down their "blue lives matter" decorations first?

[1000units]

I happened to have recently bought a police trade-in Glock. I'm returning it. I'm disgusted. I've had enough. We're back to carrying the Sig.

[guns_on_the_run]

> if this isn't a textbook example of a situation where law enforcement was justified in using lethal force, I'm not sure what is.

There is no reasonable justification for the police to execute an unarmed protestor simply for trespassing in a political building.

I suspect that you (like many others) have just become normalized to such police brutality, to think this is acceptable.

[mechEpleb]

In case you have forgotten, last year saw literal insurrectionist leftist communes that took over parts of cities, and were left unsuppressed for weeks. This is definitely quite an escalation, but to me, a European looking from the outside in, it looks anything but unilateral.

[tsimionescu]

How are protesters against police brutality 'insurrectionists'? Were they trying to stop an election from being certified? Were they trying to even overthrow elected officials?

Not to mention, the largest difference is that during the BLM protests you saw daily police brutality against the protesters from day one, with tear gas, rubber bullets, etc. You did NOT see police taking selfies on the steps of the buildings they were supposed to keep the protesters out of.

[dan-robertson]

But you also saw police officers in demonstrations of solidarity (either photo-ops or sincere).

I think if you compare a single event with a large number of different events, you’ll find examples where one is worse by some measure and others where one is better. I don’t really want to comment on the recent events or the validity of the argument (or it’s spirit), but I think it probably isn’t reasonable to compare a single event with the aggregate of many different events.

[mechEpleb]

They literally declared an autonomous zone. If that is not an insurrection I don't know what is. Words don't mean anything I guess.

[tsimionescu]

Are you referring to the Red House? You believe that a fenced in house that was sometimes called an 'autonomous zone' (as far as I can tell, most often by people outside - the mayor of Portland for example apologized for calling it such) was closer to an insurrection than people seeking to overturn the legal results of the election entering the Capitol building while congress was in session?

Even if the people defending the Red House did call it an autonomous zone, their only real demands were to protect the livelihood of one family. They did not seek to expand, they did not try to gain political power from it,they did nothing that I would actually view as a significant attempt to challenge the authority of the state beyond a very specific case.

[1000units]

He's obviously talking about CHAZ.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone

[nerdponx]

The fact remains that BLM related protests in 2020 were handled much more harshly than this. If this were a BLM protest, not only would the protestors have been all arrested and/or killed, but the media would be treating it like a national emergency.

And it's not just the fact that the police allowed it to happen or that the military was not asked to intervene until way too late.

It's also the alarmingly not-alarmed media response. What happened to "thugs" or "rioters" or "enemy combatants"?

[monoideism]

Are we watching the same news channels? They were called "terrorists" on several cable news channels, and (fairly) "insurrectionists" on just about every news channel. I also heard "thugs" more than once. I heard the event as a whole called a "sacrilege".

[nerdponx]

In that case... good. I don't have a TV so I am only seeing the headlines and articles on the Web.

[stef25]

> police are happy to work with or at least to allow fascist mobs to storm the government

Correct me if I'm wrong but a dozen or so cops standing down in front of hundreds of protestors != compliance.

> The protesters should have never even been allowed to get near the Capitol building while Congress was in session

That's absolutely right.

[blurbleblurble]

That flag symbolizes millions of dead and generations of bitterness. It's very, very weighty.

[1000units]

So does the American flag for a lot of people, that's why we need a military, right? Did you know this woman was a veteran, by the way? She swore an oath to protect that flag, not the confederate flag. Try reconciling this in your mind, maybe you'll understand what's happened better.

[blurbleblurble]

I'm not justifying it, just giving context for why folks are alarmed, especially for people from other countries who don't necessarily have context for obscure US symbols.

And yes, the American flag is problematic in its own way.

[pjc50]

Who was she and what were the circumstances of her death?

[pjc50]

Finally saw a news report: https://www.thedailybeast.com/one-woman-shot-six-hospitalize...

[nerdponx]

She appears to have been shot (maybe by a security guard?) while trying to break in through a window.

[johnchristopher]

Parent didn't say anything about that woman, it's a new element in the conversation. Don't put your assumptions in people's mouth.

[1000units]

His assumptions are built into his response.

He said "how about this symbolism!" and talked about a piece of cloth. I'm now asking what an unarmed woman with blood pooling out of her head symbolizes. If it helps you answer the question at all, she was also a US military veteran with four tours of service.

[torben-friis]

Symbols usually become symbols due to them being glaring examples of an injustice. George Floyd became a symbol, for example, due to the obvious unreasonableness of him being killed violently on the street when an officer responded to the use of a counterfeit bill. People don't consider that a reasonable reaction.

If you had asked any American a week ago about what they think is a reasonable reaction for an officer faced with people trying to surpass a barricade, that has been set up for security reasons inside a government building to protect the people inside, after said building has been trespassed by a crowd breaking through the windows, I don't think "shooting" would have been unexpected.As some people pointed out half jokingly, "you can't even try that in GTA".

I don't see the relevance of mentioning that woman's connection to the military either, other than emphasising that she should have known better.

In opposition, I think the flag that symbolises the right of people to own slaves, being flown without consequence in the meeting place of congress while the officers stand around and take selfies with the mob, sends a clear message to the descendants of slaves about how much can they expect to be protected and represented by that democracy. Even more so in a climate where they have been violently repressed for protesting inequality.

[nerdponx]

It's not just about slavery.

Today's "Confederate flag" is literally a rebel battle flag from a horrifying civil war.

The fact that said civil war was instigated by the rebels specifically to protect the institution of slavery is just bonus.

It is a very powerful symbol. Anyone who claims it's about Southern heritage is being deliberately ignorant. It's blatantly oppositional, self-serving, and violent.

[matham]

It symbolizes nothing. A flag is a symbol for an idea and means nothing on its own. A death is not a symbol for anything but means a lot on its own.

I really don't understand how this is relevant to flying that flag which represents much intentional suffering, to which the above poster objected.

[refurb]

A death is not a symbol? We’re you around for the protests this summer?

[guns_on_the_run]

It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted, you make an excellent point.

George Floyd was murdered by police during a routine arrest.

Ashli Babbitt was executed by police for trespassing during a protest.

Both of these (and many others) are powerfully symbolic: of an overbearing and largely unaccountable police state, in which its enforcers use violence as a first resort.

[stef25]

People tend to lose sight of the fact that something like 99.9% of interactions between police and civilians involves no violence at all.

[1000units]

George Floyd was a common criminal coming down from a large fentanyl dose (nevertheless RIP), Ashli Babbitt was a military veteran acting in an expressly conscientious manner alongside a large gathering of other like-minded political activists. Surely these are both tragic losses, and yet the common criminal received immeasurably greater sympathies here and elsewhere. What's going on? Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence? Perhaps this explains the months of undirected destruction that followed across the country in the middle of what was represented as a dire pandemic? Maybe these people are hypocrites, useful idiots, bigots, and losers?

[johnchristopher]

From what I remember the common criminal was not resisting the arrest and got slowly suffocated by a police officer using a technique that is not sanctionned for neutralizing suspects.

The military veteran - gathering with like minded people who thought they were sent there to make a coup and storm the capitole and one of them was carrying colsons so who knows what else they planned to do - try to get further in the capitole, with the support of a mob behind her singing threats, to wreak havoc.

How you think your attempt to fabricate an alternative reality on HN is going to fly is beyond me.

> Were BLM grievances not rooted in an equitable respect for the sanctity of life and an earnest desire for peaceful coexistence?

GF was slowly put to death. Ashli Babbit broke through a doorglass after breaking into the capitole with people who had previously brought the flag down and claimed to overturn a democratic election. I don't see this act as a sign of wanting a peaceful coexistence.

[tehwebguy]

Yeah, this is a tragedy and a failure of the VA as well.

I’m sure there is a program (or several) to help our vets adjust to civilian life but it needs to be updated to help build community so they aren’t as likely to get sucked into Qanon or similar cults like she did.

Separately, we need to continue to raise our expectations of police ability to de-escalate situations. This is one of many, many unarmed civilians killed by police in recent years. Normally they aren’t storming the capitol, but it should still be possible for police / secret service to de-escalate a situation like this. It won’t happen until our DAs and various state attorneys start charging cops that kill.