[ardit33]

It is not good. Like it or not, this is the only alternative NATO has for the forceable future. The British Tempest and the French/German stealth fighter won’t be operational until 2035-2040

The only alternative are modernizes 4gen fighters which are very vulnerable to modern air defenses.

A ‘buggy’ F-35 might still be a better alternative.

Also the British are counting for the F-35 to equip its carriers.

[lumost]

I keep hearing concerns that modern radars may be able to defeat the F-35's stealth, or will be able to defeat it in the near future. I can't help but think that it will be hard to keep a plane flying at mach 1 hidden in the face of fast scanning and networked phased array radars with modern deep learning based detection algorithms.

My understanding is that if you take away the stealth aspect the F-35 is a sluggish fighter bomber that would be outperformed by most 4th gens. Considering an F-35 is nearly the price of 10 4th gen fighters the choice to "upgrade" becomes pretty suspect for a lot of Nato partners.

[onepointsixC]

>I can't help but think that it will be hard to keep a plane flying at mach 1 hidden in the face of fast scanning and networked phased array radars with modern deep learning based detection algorithms.

Yes a sophisticated network of radars, sensors, and computers could potentially detect lower RCS aircraft from further away. But that problem would exist for larger RCS aircraft as well. Such a system is a prime target for first hour strike by cruise missiles as the radars required are very large and power intensive. It's not just about detection, but also being able to acquire a firing solution. A lower RCS plane is harder to track, easier to hide with jamming, and ultimately much more of a headache than a higher RCS plane.

>My understanding is that if you take away the stealth aspect the F-35 is a sluggish fighter bomber that would be outperformed by most 4th gens.

F35's performance is superior to the planes it replaces while providing both greater range and payload. It's got very high AoA capabilities which only the F-22 can surpass. Even more impressively it is able to do maneuvers which other plans cannot do without thrust vectoring.[0]

>Considering an F-35 is nearly the price of 10 4th gen fighters the choice to "upgrade" becomes pretty suspect for a lot of Nato partners.

Wrong. Lot 14 F-35A's cost $78M.[1] That's less than new Eurofighters and Dassault Rafale.

The F35 is the best thing currently in production. That's not to say it's perfect. The F-35's biggest flaws are not that of maneuverability or insufficient stealth. But of range. Despite improving on the airframes which it is replacing in range, it is not enough given the realities of Chinese A2/AD capabilities. The USAF needs a new fighter which is capable of significantly greater ranges as to not over stretch it's tanker network. The NGAD program hopes to address this.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-APFmIGo1k [1]: https://www.defensenews.com/air/2019/10/29/in-newly-inked-de...

[euler_angles]

> My understanding is that if you take away the stealth aspect the F-35 is a sluggish fighter bomber that would be outperformed by most 4th gens. Considering an F-35 is nearly the price of 10 4th gen fighters the choice to "upgrade" becomes pretty suspect for a lot of Nato partners.

First, "4th generation" can mean anything from an F-16A from 1978 to an F-16V of today. An F-16V is actually more expensive than an F-35A.

Second, if you take away the stealth of the F-35 it still has:

* A highly capable APG-81 radar with features like low-probability of intercept transmission modes, electronic attack (jamming) capability, multi-target track, ground moving target indication/track, synthetic aperture radar mapping, and passive (receive only) track capability

* Integrated electro-optical targeting pod with laser designator and range finder.

* Integrated software defined radio that can handle communications on UHF, VHF, Link-16, and inter-flight MADL

* 4 pi steradian awareness Distributed Aperture System that's a mid-wave IRST and missile launch/missile warning system

* Integrated Electronic Support Measures suite that provides Band 4/Band 5 detection and single ship rangefinding of incoming RF

F-16V has most of this same stuff or functional equivalents, but you pay tens of millions more to get it.

[imtringued]

The solution to that problem is to have conventional non stealth aircraft or cruise missiles in your fleet. Detecting the F-35 might be possible with enough attention but if you detect a conventional fleet you are going to focus your attention on the low hanging fruit first.

[SpaceRaccoon]

There's speculation that the cutting edge radars fielded by China and Russia can detect stealth aircraft, so the advantage may be moot now.

[lsllc]

I was going to correct you and say maybe you meant the Typhoon, not Tempest, but indeed there is a proposed UK aircraft program called Tempest:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Tempest

[mhh__]

£2Bn seems like a hilariously British amount of money to develop a modern fighter for.

[bfieidhbrjr]

Buggy? It barely works. Short flight time. Crap wing loading. Not good at any of it's multi-roles.

We could build 5-10 F-16s for each F-35, and many more A-10s, and they'd be better despite being ancient designs.

They're so expensive we can't even do proper flight training in them, it'd cost too much if we break one.

[mhh__]

> 5-10 F-16s

The new F-16V costs as near as makes no difference the cost of an F-35

[dogma1138]

The Israeli's seem to be happy with it, use it in combat and are buying more.

[bfieidhbrjr]

They don't pay for them. It's where all the "aid" money goes.

[dogma1138]

They do, even if it's partially done via aid money. And again they could buy multiple F-16's for the price of a single F-35 through the same aid program.

[strictnein]

> "Crap wing loading"

Yes, why does this super stealthy plane not have support for lots of reflecting metal things hanging from its wings?

[NickNameNick]

'Wing loading' is the ratio of overall weight to lifting area, which directly affects the aircrafts ability to turn.

It has nothing to do with hanging stuff from the wings.