[revanx_]

I see, I've heard about it but I couldn't find any reference that systemd starts listening on sockets before the firewall service is started. Even if it did, with systemd you can setup your firewall service to start before the eth link goes up.

[corty]

You can't typically start the firewall before the eth link goes up, since rules that contain network interfaces might not work before those are created (e.g. in case of bridge or bonding interfaces). Systemd's "start everything at once, let the dependencies sort out automatically" is a major regression for server systems. With sysv-init you could just pick the right ordering and be done, everything was stable for every boot after that.

[genghizkhan]

You can, using the directives "Wants=network-pre.target" & "Before=network-pre.target". This will make sure the service is up before any network interface is configured.

Source: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/NetworkTar...

[corty]

Not quite. First, this doesn't apply to any interfaces that are created by system services like VPN tunnels. Second, you would usually want and need network-online.target, because firewall config often is applied after network-pre only. Third, dynamic stuff like VLAN interfaces also only appear after network-pre and often only after network-online. So no cookies for you. This kind of non-attention to details is actually what makes systemd bad: Everything looks like the authors laptop, if it doesn't, tough luck.

[genghizkhan]

Edit: Sorry, I just realised what you mean. I don't know about iptables, but I've got nftables set to come up before the network is set up and it works perfectly fine without enp3s0 or wg0 having come up. The rules are set and then the interfaces come up.

Original comment follows:

I'm... not sure I understand. VPNs would only work after your physical interfaces are up, right? So if you want your firewall rules to be applied before a VPN interface comes up then you'd be perfectly fine with network-pre. From the page I linked in the comment you replied to:

"network-pre.target is a target that may be used to order services before any network interface is configured. Its primary purpose is for usage with firewall services that want to establish a firewall before any network interface is up. It's a passive unit: you cannot start it directly and it is not pulled in by the the network management service, but by the service that wants to run before it. Network management services hence should set After=network-pre.target, but avoid any Wants=network-pre.target or even Requires=network-pre.target. Services that want to be run before the network is configured should place Before=network-pre.target and also set Wants=network-pre.target to pull it in. This way, unless there's actually a service that needs to be ordered before the network is up the target is not pulled in, hence avoiding any unnecessary synchronization point."

So ideally you'd run your VPN service after network-online.target has been reached, which would certainly be after the firewall rules have been applied.

The great thing about persistent interface names is that if you know the names of the interfaces which are going to be coming up, then you can set up a firewall before any of them come up. Which takes care of dynamic VLAN interfaces. You can use IP addresses or blocks to refer to them in your firewall config, am I right?

If you think I'm unable to grasp your situation, can you give me a more detailed example?

[fao_]

> Systemd's "start everything at once, let the dependencies sort out automatically" is a major regression for server systems. With sysv-init you could just pick the right ordering and be done, everything was stable for every boot after that.

This is a big point. All of the systemd systems I've been exposed to in the wild have non-deterministic inits, i.e. if it takes longer than average to boot up once (A problem I had a few times), starting it again doesn't replicate said problem. If the network craps itself when booting sometimes, that problem is variable so it's impossible to tell if you've fixed the problem, and it was what you suspected, or if it's something else and you only think that you've fixed it.

On the other hand, my alpine system consistently boots up. If it errors once, it will error consistently enough to allow tracing of the cause, but regardless, it has never had a problem on boot.

[revanx_]

iptables and nftables both have ways to declare rules for interfaces that come and go. Identifying dynamic interfaces is done by string comparison instead of by index (for static interfaces).

[corty]

Which doesn't always help you if you are actually using one of the make-firewalling-easier-daemons (which I personally would advise against). Those often only support very basic features, but are pushed heavily by the commercial distros.