[lcamach84]

The aim of the economy before the covid is to produce things and this production is no longer synonymous with increased comfort. For example, Spain has many more houses than families but these families have more difficulty in paying rents. However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all to give work to the rest. But what we have to do to avoid anthropocene is not compatible with this economy and so we have to think of a post-work society.

[bassman9000]

post-work society

What does that mean?

[fsflover]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-work_society

[africanboy]

> However this production has to exist in order to maintain a profit of a few and above all

And to keep the jobs of those doing that kind of production. I read an article a few years ago about Spaniards living in small flats more than any other country in Europe.

There are a few features of Spain that can explain why:

- Spain is mostly empty space and population is concentrated in cities

- Spaniards spend a lot of their time on the outside, so they don't need much space at home

- There are 18.5 million of families in Spain, the largest group are families of two people (with children), the second largest are people living alone (4.5 million) that would explain why there are empty houses, many people living alone cannot afford or do not want to live alone and share an apartment.

> so we have to think of a post-work society

You mean the pre-work society, right? :)

Work as the means of subsistence is a relatively recent invention.

There are other factors beyond the economic value of work, most of them are non-rational.

Take for example Christianity, for Christians until 19th century work was a form of redemption and salvation.

The idea has never completely faded away among them.

Calvinists and Protestants still believe that "born of poor parents and made his way up the ladder by sheer ability, self-reliance, and perseverance in the face of hardship. In short, he had to be "self made." The so-called Protestant Ethic then prevalent held that man was a sturdy and responsible individual, responsible to himself, his society, and his God. Anybody who could not measure up to that standard could not qualify for public office or even popular respect."

Do you think that large segments of US population (just as an example) would believe that or what Martin Luther King jr. said?

> We have deluded ourselves into believing the myth that capitalism grew and prospered out of the Protestant ethic of hard work and sacrifice. The fact is that capitalism was built on the exploitation and suffering of black slaves and continues to thrive on the exploitation of the poor — both black and white, here and abroad

More recently work for Christians has become a means of subsistence but it has become a way to express righteousness, as Weber said "Good works may express our devotion to values of care, compassion, or love for our neighbor, to a way of being that emulates the life of Jesus".

So in a way people go to work for reasons other than simply the salary.

To imagine a society without work one needs to also address the social and political issues revolving around it, it's not simply a technical solution to a technical problem, it's much more than that.

[bassman9000]

So in a way people go to work for reasons other than simply the salary.

This is critical. Most people think passion first, then you'll find the perfect job, and it's not always like that. You may need to work for a while in order to find what you truly are good at, and enjoy.

For that to happen, though, there needs to be reduced red tape and taxes, so switching jobs is easy and affordable for both parties.

UBI torpedoes this: it means higher taxes, and reduces the incentives to look for a better job.

[mkl95]

It cannot be stressed enough how limited job mobility is here when compared to somewhere like the US.

As a personal anecdote, I have been threatened with legal action by two CEOs when I gave them my notice. The first time it was because I mentioned that I was interviewing for positions at local competitors, the second time it was because I gave them a week's notice instead of two weeks, even though I wasn't required to give them any notice. It is that ridiculous.

[bassman9000]

This will sadly ring so many Spaniard bells. I was told, upon giving my first job's two week notice, that I'd never find a better job and that I was wasting a lifetime opportunity.

But that's because employers know mobility is close to none when no one wants to risk moving, so they're emboldened by the asymmetric relation. Fun fact: this was a large consulting company with its own union, aside from the national and local ones. Never heard or saw any of their doings.

[thinkingemote]

Just a note about Spain. It's mostly Catholic so culturally the protestant work ethic is pretty weak there.

Same also for Italy and Ireland I guess. It's half and half in England. It's more protestant in Scotland, and of course the US was founded on the notion

The south of Germany is meant to be Catholic but I don't know if culturally they are more laid back when it comes to work there.

[africanboy]

> It's mostly Catholic so culturally the protestant work ethic is pretty weak there.

So is Italy, my country.

And I think there is a strong correlation with the fact that in Italy and Spain capitalism is different from, say, Germany or Netherlands.