[gisborne]

Computing tools for non—programmers.

In the early days of computing, we quickly came up with the spreadsheet and the user-friendly relational database (Access, FileMaker).

Then we just sort of stopped. The no-code thing today is a step in that direction, but we could do so much better.

I’m actually ashamed of the software industry that we have done so poorly at this.

[Nextgrid]

One answer is that people stopped valuing software and thus paying for software. Furthermore, every service out there now attempts to monopolize their market and intentionally degrades interoperability, further lowering the potential value these tools would provide.

Let's say there's such a tool out there and you want to buy it to roll your own mailing list and want to message your customers on Facebook Messenger. Well, you can't, and any attempt at circumventing the restriction such as screen-scraping will be met with account closures citing ToS or legal threats abusing the CFAA or even the DMCA.

[johnorourke]

It sounds like you have a specific case of this which caused some problems, what was it?

[tabtab]

The real problem is maintenance. Maintenance of software is about 2/3 of programming costs. It's counter-intuitive, but has proven true over time. Tools that make it easy to create the original application often make maintenance worse. They only help 1/3 of the total cost pie, pumping up the other 2/3.

Learning how to write maintainable code is actually harder than learning to code. You pretty much have to be burned by maintenance trial and error on your code AND others' code to learn this skill. There are plenty of books that teach "principles" of maintainable designs, but the principles often conflict with each other such that it's a balancing act between competing factors such that a simple list of rules fails.

I can give lots of anecdotes of people getting carried away with specific "principles". The necessary principles are a piano keyboard, but they play only a few favorite notes, making even cats cry. Knowing when and how to use which note is still an art.

[johnorourke]

We have not done poorly. Atall. "no-code" is a whole movement now - it's the modern day COBOL. See: * Airbase (imagine circa 1998 Microsoft Access but on the web and with integrations) * Infinityapp.com * Monday.com (easily recreate your business processes and types of data, and integrate with other systems) * Asana * ....dozens more.

Then add the universal integration tools: * IFTTT * Zapier * Tray * ...and many more

Basically we're now "post-app"... a non-technical user can go to a SaaS product, follow a tutorial, create something representing their business, and link it to other best-in-class products for accounting, warehousing, shipping, e-commerce, etc.

Don't be ashamed. We've a long way to go for sure, but we've come a long way, baby.

[Tobias42]

I recently thought about this, too. Is there any cloud-based, simple relational database, aimed at non-programmers?

[jugg1es]

Microsoft Access is a database aimed at non-programmers. I'm not really sure why you would care if it's cloud-based or not if you aren't a programmer though. You could have Access save your database file to One Drive or something. Access also integrates with SQL Server and you can probably get a free tier one on Azure.

[chaostheory]

Microsoft is aiming to replace it with their easy to use Power App platform. Plenty of people and companies are working on this problem

[jodrellblank]

Excel, web version.

( https://www.google.com/search?q=%22excel+database%22 )

[kylewatson]

QuickBase and Knack are along those lines.

A long time ago I used QuickBase. It was like a Google sheets before google sheets and you could couple multiple sheets together, relating them.

It has probably come a long way since then, but ironically, I can't get past the marketing ui of the website to see how it really works.

Fucking marketing people love to hide the product behind bullshit.

[joubert]

Interesting. What do you envision non-programmers would do with it?

[uses]

Airtable

[johnorourke]

Airbase.