[giantg2]

"obtained by an authoritarian government that protects people from themselves"

Why fight nature? Government shouldn't protect citizens from themselves. Let it take its course. The stupid people should reduce through natural attrition. It's controversial, but it's the way the natural world works.

[ConcreteGidget]

We can definitely make systemic changes that help people make better "decisions." I don't believe in free will and you clearly do so we're kinda approaching this problem from fundamentally different frameworks. Stupid people shouldn't be culled but rather shepherded. Governments are artificial constructs so asking them to act "naturally" doesn't make sense to me as they have no natural state.

Also reducing human suffering seems to be a pretty good thing to do and your natural system doesn't seem to do that.

[giantg2]

I never said they should be culled. I'm saying let the problem take care of itself.

The actions you were proposing weren't things to help people make better decisions (if they were, it would still be free will). They were to make laws to outlaw activities. If you don't believe in free will, why do you propose helping people make better decisions? Do you really think imposing someone else's will over others is more benign? The government imposes its will through force or threat thereof (causing human suffering).

Government and politics is not really artificial. They form naturally whenever there are groups of people - similar leadership and power dynamics exist in the natural world too (look at bees, ants, wolves, etc).

[ConcreteGidget]

The government imposes its will all the time. It prevents you from shooting me or overthrowing the government. Surely this imposition is just? Surely this is more benign then letting you shoot me or letting you overthrow the government.

Why? Because it reduces human suffering.

Also surely with better technology we will be able to transform prisons into rehabilitation centers and thus reduce our countries prison populations and thus become a FREER country, albeit one with less rights?

I think comparing our government to a beehive or a pack of wolves is ridiculous I guess you can call governments "natural." Even if we consider this government natural, surely it doesn't have a natural state. What is the "natural state" of a government of 350 million people?

[giantg2]

You're being very presumptuous and not using linear premises in your logic. You assume that government reduces human suffering and that people would be running wild without one. There's a lot more to society than government.

For example, why would I shoot you? I have no motive to do that regardless of what the laws may be. There is nothing the government has done to make it impossible for someone to shoot you. It's just that if some one does and gets caught, they go to prison.

On the subject of dissolving the government, you are completely wrong. There is nothing stopping me from non-violently overthrowing the government. The Constitution even states that if the people want to dissolve the government, they can. So I could try to convince people to elect myself and others who would change or even dissolve it.

"Also surely with better technology we will be able to transform prisons into rehabilitation centers and thus reduce our countries prison populations and thus become a FREER country, albeit one with less rights?"

This is completely nonsensical. Technology isn't holding back prison reform - social and political powers are the main drivers. Why would the number of rights be reduced? You've laid out no premise to connect nor support that statement.